Anyone seen this before? How do I get rid of it?

Kevan

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After a night in Charlotte, I came out to find the car covered in morning dew. I thought nothing of it, figured I'd wipe the car down after it had evaporated, and went on to eat breakfast.

Before lunchtime, this had happened (but only to one side of the car; the side that had the sun blocked by the hotel):

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My local detail guy has never seen anything like it.
If you know *** it is, and/or how to remove it, please let me know.
We have some ideas, but wanted to confer with others before embarking.

THANKS!
 

Junkman2008

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Oh yea, those are hard water stains my friend. WHATEVER you do, DO NOT WAX THEM! That will seal them in. What you will need to do is polish them out. I have a thread that shows just how to do it if you have 1:53:00 to spare. Check out the thread here.
 

rw99

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Junkman, given that these spots are brand-new, what's your opinion of the "white vinegar" (or similar pH-based) treatment? Seems like these deposits should dissolve into solution if they're only a few days old...
 

Junkman2008

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Anything is worth a try, especially something simple like that. The question is, just how new are those stains? It doesn't take hard water stains long to etch into your paint. That stuff HAS to be addressed IMMEDIATELY.
 
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Kevan

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Junkman- THANKS!
I'm pretty sure these are actually kerosene/jet fuel stains, as the hotel was literally right next to the airport.
Why do I think that? My detail guy (Addison Good) told me they are 20 microns deep! That's deep, folks....about half-way through the clearcoat!

What's odd is that there were 500 other Vipers there, but no one else had this end up on their car?

Robert- it's a snake; not a lizard. :)
 

rw99

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Why not just use a clay bar to remove those deposits?
Worth a try... but if they've started to etch it won't help. Been there, unfortunately.

The white vinegar method varies a bit: some use 50:50 water:vinegar, some use undiluted. Warm solution on a room-temp paint surface is best. Fresh spots may be treatable by spraying on and wiping off, but I'm guessing you'll need to expose those spots to your solvent for a longer period of time. I've read about guys wetting paper towels and leaving them on the paint for 15 min or so... never tried that, myself.

As always, test your method on a small section that's less visible.

You'll need to re-wax the paint when finished. Which, in a way, brings you back to Junkman's suggestion... if you're gonna re-wax, why not just bite the bullet and do a full detail with clay bar & polishing prior to putting on that new coat of wax?

Good luck, and let us know what works...


Rich
 

VYPR BYT 94

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They are deep because I felt them in the parking after lunch and it was scary how deep they were.
However, I think it was the hotel water to be honest. If you washed it the night before and didn't get it all off then that could just be it. The airport thing I don't really know... :dunno:
I just know that I had some water spots trying their best to etch into my paint that same morning. I was washing the car late by the supplied hoses they had out and it was hard to get everything dried as it was getting dark. Then found some spots I missed the next morning so I had to work ******* them... still have a few on the sills that I didn't get completely.
 

Stretch

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I told you not to go through that automatic car wash at the gas station!
 

Junkman2008

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Looks like you are going to need those videos that I linked you too if the spots are that bad.
 

TowDawg

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I'll give you $10k for the car if it's too much work for you get the spots off. ;)

Were you parked near anywhere that could have had sprinkers turn on at the hotel? That water usually isn't treated at all, so it can definitely leave some nasty spots in the paint. My hose water was horrible before I bought a CR Spotless (best money I've ever spent). I ended up doing a complete detail with clay, polish, wax to get rid of them, but I had been needing to do that anyway.
 

denniskgb

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I have seen it in the past. It is water marks. Hard water. The water had a lot of sulfur in it. That WILL stain the car. You can have a detail guy wet sand it and then wax it. I have a used car business, had black bmws with stains like that , wet sanding, buffing and waxing 100% takes care of it.:2tu: if you need more info i can provide you a number for my detailer a9he make a black car look like glass) he can give you some pointers.
 

Paul Hawker

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Wet sanding is great for a car you are going to sell, however it will remove about 1/2 the clear coat to get these out, and that means you are not going to be able to do it ever again.

It is similar to having brake rotor/drums resurfaced. You can only do it so many times until you need to buy new, or in the case of spots, repaint.
 

Junkman2008

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I have seen it in the past. It is water marks. Hard water. The water had a lot of sulfur in it. That WILL stain the car. You can have a detail guy wet sand it and then wax it. I have a used car business, had black bmws with stains like that , wet sanding, buffing and waxing 100% takes care of it.:2tu: if you need more info i can provide you a number for my detailer a9he make a black car look like glass) he can give you some pointers.

I would NEVER suggest wet sanding until I physically touch the car in person. That is not always necessary to remove that kind of damage. I've had water spots that looked like that come off with nothing but soap and water. Each case should be evaluated individually as water spots can run a wide range of what will remove the damage.

Wet sanding is great for a car you are going to sell, however it will remove about 1/2 the clear coat to get these out, and that means you are not going to be able to do it ever again.

It is similar to having brake rotor/drums resurfaced. You can only do it so many times until you need to buy new, or in the case of spots, repaint.

That is a very generalized statement as not all folks, self company included are not going to remove remotely close to that much clear coat when fixing aint with sandpaper. Also, some of us are going to use a tool like the DeFelsko PosiTector 200B or C/Advanced, which allows us to see EXACTLY how much primer, base coat and clear coat we are starting with and how much we are removing as we work. The right tools can take you from guessing to working with precision.
 

ZZ SRT

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I am running into this same issue. I bought a low mileage one-owner 2008 coupe about 6 weeks ago and the owner had taken abysmal care of the car. I bought it out of state so the pictures looked fine and when I got there, there were surface scratches everywhere and the car was filthy under the cover! It looked like he washed the car with a garden hose (hard water) and used kitchen towels to dry it.

Being that I'm into detailing and done some pretty in-depth corrections, I looked over the car and didn't see any deep scratches so I figured it would take a good bit of polish, but I would be able to do a full correction. The car had so many swirls I couldn't even see the hard water spots lurking beneath.

I got home, did a one stage polish to remove the surface scratches and swirls and revealed a black giraffe. Water spots with clear-coat etching everywhere! I initially wasn't worried, I had only used a light polish and pad so I figured with a bit of compound, I would have no issue getting them out. Not the case :crazy2:

Next step was to figure out how bad it really was.

First test spot: Used a Surbuf pad with M105. Did about 5 passes. It removed the smaller, less severe spots but left a few of the deeper, etched edges of the hard water spots (couldn't get to the bottom of the etching). DID NOT GET FULL CORRECTION.

Second test spot Lightly wet sanded with 2000 grit followed by M105 to remove the sanding marks. RECEIVED FULL CORRECTION.

So here is my question. Obviously from your post above you do not suggest using wet sanding as a correction device. Approximately how many passes would I have to make with a random orbital with a Surbuf and M105 to match the correction capability of the 2000 grit? (and yes I understand the effects will be determined by pressure and RPM as well). Is going over the spot 10-15 passes with M105 still way less severe than 2000 grit?

I am planning on keeping this car long term, and I love keeping my cars looking like glass, so the thought of not obtaining full correction on these waterspots is making me feel ill. On the other hand, if I am going to jeopardize the clearcoat, 80% correction may be better and I'll have to live with the worst of the imperfections.

I only use the two-bucket wash system on my cars, and am a freak about keeping a good coat of protection on the paint, so swirling and future major corrections should be minimal. Also I plan on applying 22PLE VX1 Signature (semi-permant silica coating) on the car after correction which should help.
 
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Junkman2008

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... So here is my question. Obviously from your post above you do not suggest using wet sanding as a correction device. Approximately how many passes would I have to make with a random orbital with a Surbuf and M105 to match the correction capability of the 2000 grit? (and yes I understand the effects will be determined by pressure and RPM as well). Is going over the spot 10-15 passes with M105 still way less severe than 2000 grit?

From what you've written and the questions that you are asking, I can already see why you're having a problem. But before I say anything, I have a question. Have you watched my paint correction for novices series?
 

ZZ SRT

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From what you've written and the questions that you are asking, I can already see why you're having a problem. But before I say anything, I have a question. Have you watched my paint correction for novices series?

No. Not yours specifically but have spent countless hours reading blogs and watching other videos of professional detailers perform paint corrections of all magnitudes. I guess I assumed yours would be similar...
 

Steve M

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I've had this exact same issue on my previous toy (Black '02 Camaro)...it would only happen where the water sat and then dried, but man did it go deep. A clay bar will NOT budge something like this. Oddly enough, it was when I was using Zaino...they always said "put it on with very thin layers". I did, but apparently I put it on too thin, because this happened to me twice before I stopped using it. It seemed like other last step products protected against these spots a little better.

Hopefully you have a buffer...if not, it might be time to invest in one.
 

Junkman2008

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No. Not yours specifically but have spent countless hours reading blogs and watching other videos of professional detailers perform paint corrections of all magnitudes. I guess I assumed yours would be similar...

After you have watched my videos, you will quickly realize that they are NOTHING like the other videos you have watched. :)
 

ZZ SRT

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After you have watched my videos, you will quickly realize that they are NOTHING like the other videos you have watched. :)

You're right, I watched the first 3 last night. I've never watched a detailing video that described Charles Barkley's golf swing.

After 3, I can say no information has been new or surprising, including the fact that we generally use the same products.

My question is based from the fact that a Surbuf pad is supposed to be more aggressive than an orange pad. I typically use orange + M105 for corrections but bought the Surburf because the orange wasn't cutting enough.

Therefore, when mixed with M105, I don't know how aggressive it really is compared to a light 2000 grit wetsanding. I figure my clearcoat is around 2-2.5 mil thick. Is M105 going to take away .02-.10 mil (depending on the amount of passes) whereas 2000 grit could be .2-.3 depending on how aggressively I sand?

One update, I did turn the RPM up with the Surbuf + M105 on my test spot and got 95% correction. The 5% would be a few tiny dips in the paint where the spots etched the deepest. I think I will call it good enough. the 5% left will never be seen by anyone (so much so that I don't even know If I could get them to show in a photograph) and I don't want to risk clearcoat failure in the longterm.
 

thompsonracing

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Claybar will remove any sediment on the paint, but you will most likely have to use a polish. I've had good luck with Adam's Revive Polish for removing water stains. If it does not come out with Revive, I move on the the next agressive step.

No matter who's system you use, start with the least agressive and work your way to the most agressive, until you gain the results you are looking for. Start with a test spot in an indirect location.
 

Junkman2008

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You're right, I watched the first 3 last night. I've never watched a detailing video that described Charles Barkley's golf swing.

After 3, I can say no information has been new or surprising, including the fact that we generally use the same products.

My question is based from the fact that a Surbuf pad is supposed to be more aggressive than an orange pad. I typically use orange + M105 for corrections but bought the Surburf because the orange wasn't cutting enough.

Therefore, when mixed with M105, I don't know how aggressive it really is compared to a light 2000 grit wetsanding. I figure my clearcoat is around 2-2.5 mil thick. Is M105 going to take away .02-.10 mil (depending on the amount of passes) whereas 2000 grit could be .2-.3 depending on how aggressively I sand?

One update, I did turn the RPM up with the Surbuf + M105 on my test spot and got 95% correction. The 5% would be a few tiny dips in the paint where the spots etched the deepest. I think I will call it good enough. the 5% left will never be seen by anyone (so much so that I don't even know If I could get them to show in a photograph) and I don't want to risk clearcoat failure in the longterm.

You saw the shape of that El Camino's paint. You saw me dance on the hood. I find it next to impossible to believe that your paint is remotely as bad as mine and you saw the results that I was able to get with that orange pad and M105. That leads me to think only one thing. Your technique is questionable. You should be able to get just as much correction as I can without going to a microfiber pad. So the question that I have for you is, what technique are you using? Describe it in detail.
 

past ohio

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Kevan, have you tried a solution of Dawn liquid detergent with a couple caps of white vinegar in the 5 gallon pail and claybar the vehicle with the solution and definitely do it in a garage or shady spot, and warm temps outside, I have a personal window washing solution of white vinegar, isopropyl alcohol, dawn, you could also try this on a small spot....but I wouldn't use any sand paper on the car...any sandpaper needs a special person that knows what they are doing....I think a very good "wax" like Zaino would also do the job....good luck
 

Junkman2008

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...I think a very good "wax" like Zaino would also do the job....good luck

Any product by Zaino is either going to be a glaze or sealant, neither of which would appropriate for this problem. You could end up sealing the water spots into the paint by using them. The exception to that would be either Z-AIO or Z-PC Fusion, which are both polishes. Polishes are capable of removing paint damage.
 
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Kevan

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The spots are 99.994% gone. Addison says he can still see some of them, but even as he points to the exact areas, I can't see it. I think he's seeing things. :D

Scholls S3 Gold and a white pad (and a BUNCH of hours) were used to get rid of the spots.

It's certainly nice to have the car back to black.....even if it is up for sale. *sigh*
 

ZZ SRT

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You saw the shape of that El Camino's paint. You saw me dance on the hood. I find it next to impossible to believe that your paint is remotely as bad as mine and you saw the results that I was able to get with that orange pad and M105. That leads me to think only one thing. Your technique is questionable. You should be able to get just as much correction as I can without going to a microfiber pad. So the question that I have for you is, what technique are you using? Describe it in detail.

You're killing me smalls! I think we are not on the same page. This isn't my first time using a buffer or doing a full paint correction, not even close. I am using the same technique as you in your video. In my mind, I usually use the rule of thumb that I move the buffer 1-2 inches per second.

I will try to make my question more clear and I will use your videos as a reference. Assuming I am using 9-14 lbs of pressure on setting 5 with perfect technique, an orange pad, and M105, how many passes can I make on my clearcoat before being worried about removing too much??

My question stems from not knowing how thick the clearcoat is shot on a Viper from the factory. I have a 70 Chevelle SS I did a frame-off resto on in which I wetsanded the entire car after paint, but I knew I had PLENTY of clear coat to work with. With the Viper, not the case. I don't want to be too aggressive to get flawless paint, and risk early clearcoat failure in the long run.

I have done multiple passes with M105 and am not getting full correction. It is leaving small "dips" where the etching was the deepest. I know you are chalking this up to my bad technique, but it is more the severity and depth of the water etching. I think the first owner never put one coat of wax on the car for the 4 years he owned it, and allowed the hard water to etch deeply into the clearcoat.

I will use my DSLR and try to take pictures of the before and after to show you what I mean.

So back to the root question... If you were doing a customer's car and it had severe paint flaws, how many passes with an orange pad and M105 would you feel comfortable doing in an attempt to get full correction?
 

Junkman2008

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You're killing me smalls! I think we are not on the same page. This isn't my first time using a buffer or doing a full paint correction, not even close. I am using the same technique as you in your video. In my mind, I usually use the rule of thumb that I move the buffer 1-2 inches per second.

I will try to make my question more clear and I will use your videos as a reference. Assuming I am using 9-14 lbs of pressure on setting 5 with perfect technique, an orange pad, and M105, how many passes can I make on my clearcoat before being worried about removing too much??

Video 1 in this thread, 7:43 in. I answer this question in explicit detail.

My question stems from not knowing how thick the clearcoat is shot on a Viper from the factory. I have a 70 Chevelle SS I did a frame-off resto on in which I wetsanded the entire car after paint, but I knew I had PLENTY of clear coat to work with. With the Viper, not the case. I don't want to be too aggressive to get flawless paint, and risk early clearcoat failure in the long run.

If you are using the same exact equipment, technique and products that I use in that video series while following my paint maintenance advice, running out of clear coat is not a concern for you. Now if you CONSTANTLY do that entire process every week because you are constantly creating paint damage with your washing and dust removal procedures, that's another story. If you follow the advice that I give in those videos, the orange pad and M105 is going to be a one time occurrence in the life of your paint. On the other hand, constantly jacking up your paint by doing all the things that I preach against doing is going to eventually cause you to wipe your clear coat thin. It may take a while if you use a PC, but it will eventually happen.

If you truly want to know how much primer, base coat and clear coat is on your car, then you need to invest in a DeFelsko 200 C/Advanced paint thickness gauge. Then you will be working with EXACT numbers. No guessing when using that tool.

I have done multiple passes with M105 and am not getting full correction. It is leaving small "dips" where the etching was the deepest. I know you are chalking this up to my bad technique, but it is more the severity and depth of the water etching. I think the first owner never put one coat of wax on the car for the 4 years he owned it, and allowed the hard water to etch deeply into the clearcoat.

This very well could be the case. However, I wouldn't advise anyone reading this to go more aggressive unless they know exactly what they were doing. So many novices read suggestions in these threads and get a false sense of security when trying more advanced paint correction techniques. The next thing you know, they're staring at a paint job. The bad thing is, there are painters out there who can't match color to save their *** and you end up with a 2-tone Viper. Talk about pissed, that is not a good thing to experience.

This is why I stress technique so much. Although it may appear that you are not making as much progress as you seemed to at first, you actually are. It may not be as fast as you like, but at least the progress is safe. The only advice that I will ever give a novice about fixing his paint is advice that I would allow him to try on my very own paint. If I wouldn't allow him to try it on my paint, I'm not going to tell him to do it to his.

I will use my DSLR and try to take pictures of the before and after to show you what I mean.

So back to the root question... If you were doing a customer's car and it had severe paint flaws, how many passes with an orange pad and M105 would you feel comfortable doing in an attempt to get full correction?

Exactly what I would do is different from what I would suggest you do, as I don't know your level of expertise. If I came across some really bad damage that the PC, M105 and the orange pad was going to take forever to remove, I would bump up to my Flex or my Makita polishers. One is a true dual-action and the other is a rotary. The next step up is wet sanding, as I did on this Viper (mainly due to time constraints). One thing to note, I wouldn't touch a customer's car that required that level of work without my DeFelsko paint thickness gauge. I don't work with assumptions when it comes to someone else's car, I work with exacts.

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The damage...

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Repair in progress...

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The finished product...

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So that's what I would do. :)
 

ZZ SRT

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Thank you! I appreciate the responses and advice. I will continue with the orange and M105 for a couple more passes. If this still doesnt remove enough material, I will switch to some 3000 grit paper and do another test spot to see how deep it really is.
 
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