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Hellcat versus Viper transmission

Discussion in 'Generation V Discussions / SRT Coupe, GTS, GTC, AC' started by doctorbob, May 23, 2014.

  1. SnakeBitten

    SnakeBitten Enthusiast

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    Wow at this thread. I'm with the DCT crowd. An "option" is exactly what it means. It should NEVER replace the manual imho. A DCT would give far more improvement to the Vipers performance and desirability to a larger piece of the market than a mere clutch and flywheel upgrade as was mentioned. I believe that 0-60 in less than 3 secs and on to over 100mph in 7sec or less due to DCT will provide plenty of emotion :smirk: for the majority that don't track the Viper. The Viper is still among the top cars in its class on a circuit track despite the lack of DCT so its much less a "need" for the track rats hence the "option" buy one with or without a DCT would sate both street warrior and track rat. I like a few others just don't see the problem with a DCT option.
     
  2. MoparMap

    MoparMap VCA National President Venom Member

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    Haha, yep, figured that one out but didn't have anywhere near the money to pull that off. My Jag was pennies compared to an Aston since it had tons of miles and depreciates heavily (for no good reason in my opinion). As I understood it the Maserati GranTurismo is also very close to the same car, but also burdened with an auto only option I believe.

    I've found my taste in cars weird lately. I drove my parents' 94 Viper the other day and really enjoyed it for some reason. I drive my 04 all the time, so it was a noticeable step back in pretty much all regards (power, handling, comfort, etc.), but I think it made me appreciate it more or something. I seem to like having to make more compromises on a car. Having a car that does everything isn't as fun to me for some reason. I'd rather have a track car that beats me up and a luxury cruiser for trips, but not both in the same car. Need some variety to keep things entertaining. I think that's one reason the Viper appeals to me so much. You know anyone else who drives one is making the same compromises because they really like the car that much and have something in common with you.

    I've been in my local Vette club for years and almost all of them are over 50 and have Z06's, but very few of them either drive them hard or have manuals. When my mom showed up in her plain Jane 99 they were amazed she actually wanted the stick shift that was in it. I've met very few people in the Viper club who don't drive their cars hard from time to time, which is what I think makes it that much more fun of a group.
     
  3. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    I do not think it is a noise at all, a matter of different technologies and it really helps narrow down the ultimate objective, do you want a clutchless car or someone else doing the shifting for you.
     
  4. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    What transmission does GT3-R offer?:drive:
     
  5. TrackAire

    TrackAire Enthusiast

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    Paddleshift sequential transmission.....that would be epic in a Viper. I have obviously not driven one but I think the clutch is only for take off. How fun would that be on the track??
     
  6. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    Astons depreciate heavily as well, just a higher residual value afterwards. You should test drive one to try it for size, even if you cannot afford one. The dealers selling Astons and Porsche are very accommodating and certainly will let you test drive. I tried for size V8V and V12V, they are very neat cars. All you have to do is to pull up in a Viper and test drive is not an issue.

    I agree completely about Corvette owners, I recall a guy who liked to stop by at my local coffee shop, wore a black sweat suit matching color of his car and Z06 hat to make sure there is no mistake who owns the car, especially when leaving and revving it up, LOL.

     
  7. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    I do not know, just pointing out that there are means to take this route.
     
  8. 05Commemorative

    05Commemorative Enthusiast

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    not sure comparing drivers going to various series is a real determining factor. As an example, name an F1 driver that has done well in Nascar? just different skills required that go well beyond the transmission. more on technology differences, communication, track, etc between all the series in addition to where you must live, money and culture that goes along with it. Just look at Juan Montoya, done all of the series and by many rights, a great driver but definitely did not succeed in Nascar.

    But overall, get your point. I personally rather master braking, cornering and higher speeds than focusing on the shifting, but in the end, all very fun.
     
  9. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    I think it is good to express yourself although really surprising others find it and read it. Ain't no harm in expressing my disappointment with the turn Vette took, it could have been so much better.

    I think a complaint about transmission being able to shift faster than you can react is an issue all cars should have, LOL. I am pretty sure that at least physically, there is considerably less effort, without the need to coordinate your feet with your hands while operating clutch, brakes, steering wheel and shifter vs. automated alternative. Maybe EFFORT is a better word than SKILL.
     
  10. klamathpro

    klamathpro Viper Owner

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    In traffic jams, the DCT is a dream. Quite the opposite of a stick. The Jag is an auto, not a DCT. There are no clutch problems, on the contrary, the stock DCT clutches can handle gobs amount of power and you can actually adjust the pressure places via a TCM programmer and increase the clutch strength and the the touch points. There is no lag with a DCT, at least not in a GT-R in manual mode, it's instant. In fact, I find myself being impatient on how slow it is to change gears in my GTS after driving my GT-R for a day. And the GT-R's DCT holds the gear when in race mode, no matter what you do. I've hit the 8000rpm fuel cutoff several times because I wasn't fast enough to react to how quickly I needed to change gears. It would be worse if it was a stick in that car.

    It is all of the above. But the number one reason was because of performance. Lambo sold 10 E-Gears to every 1 stick. And that was before DCT. DCT is way better than E-Gear or Ferrari's F1 tranny. Honestly, I find myself in just as much control with the DCT as I am with a stick. The only thing lacking is the ability to skip more than one gear. If you double click fast, you can skip one, maybe two gears. Slipping the clutch is also not possible, however there is never a need to because the clutch always slips the perfect amount every time.

    Exactly. +10

    Seriously, if you doubt the DCT, drive one, the 911 or the GT-R. I was a die hard stick fan since my first car and was not a believer, until I drove one. It's an eye opener on a higher HP vehicle. It's amazing how much time is lost shifting gears. It's not fractions of a second in the quarter, it's literally over a full second after three shifts. Huge on the strip or road racing, which is why F1 cars don't use a stick anymore. Why else does a 3900 lbs monster with 100 less HP beat the GenV on the street and on the strip. It's not just the AWD. There are much worse things that are disconnecting drivers from the road, I just drove a 2015 BMW 328i turbo today, what a numb car in everything. It was a stick but nothing felt connected, nothing. The steering, brakes, even the stick itself felt disconnected. It felt like a complete waste of $60k.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2014
  11. Bruce H.

    Bruce H. Enthusiast

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    A track friend just bought a C7 Z51 with magnetic suspension and 7 speed manual. Keeping his GT-R with DCT, but bought the Vette with a stick for daily drive to work in summer and track lapping days. Manual more fun for him even if it's a tad slower than a computer shifting for him, and I'm the same way.

    Do you think most of those buying an exotic car like a Viper would have the same preferences as those buying a mainstream car like a Porsche or Corvette? Do the broad auto industry stats of auto vs manual sales really apply? I would think many of Porsche and Vettes are purchased by non-serious enthusiasts, and those just looking for something sporty or a status symbol. I could buy either of those for my wife or daughter with an auto and they'd love it. My son might as well, but he loves a stick and associates that with sports cars as that's what he's grown up with. If he hadn't he mightn't give it any thought.

    If the P-car comes with only an auto would many buyers even question the lack of a manual like we question the lack of an auto? The P-car owners that track their cars are all going to want whatever is faster, and whatever Porsche says is better. That's because when they do a track day they are out with many other P-cars, and they have a very active and competitive group of track rats. Few viper owners track their cars, and are far more interested in the rated horsepower than track performance and shifting speed. I just spent a track day with about 20 of Porsches finest and doing a Chin Motorsports track day next month. Mine will be the only Viper, and there's an awful lot of Porsche. That's the group that is serious about performance while we want an exotic and engaging driving experience. That's maybe why we value the Viper and it's old fashion stick, and not as many others care about the stick or having something exotic.

    Having said that, we do have hard-core drag enthusiasts that might like an auto/DCT, and others as previously mentioned, and it would be great for them if they could order one. We all want our preferences to be addressed in anything we buy, but we also know that just isn't always possible :(
     
  12. Torquemonster

    Torquemonster Enthusiast

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    YEP, AND THEY FART AND BURP THE ALPHABET TOO. Sorry, was I yelling?

    lol
     
  13. Torquemonster

    Torquemonster Enthusiast

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    Hey Vic, good to see you posting, been many years since I enjoyed your hospitality in LA, but I still remember it with great fondness. You and your lovely wife treated us with kindness and we'll always remember that, so if you ever get to New Zealand be sure to look us up, we'll return the favor.

    Back to your point, I agree. The old stick shifts are a lot of fun but no longer the quickest. Also above a certain power level, if driving on a twisty road, you reach a point where things happen very fast and shifting an H pattern is just another thing that can go wrong. I do closed road events either in my turbocharged LS3 or AMG C63 507. If I mess up, there's no track run out area, its over a bank or into one, or worse, into a tree. The AMG 7 speed is an absolute treat to drive and lets me focus on keeping it all on the road. As I can't keep an auto in the LS3 (After $15k I've decided autos just cannot take road racing above certain power levels) I'm going to have to go manual, but I'll go sequential. The last thing I need with 800hp between 2 tight bends with steering wheel going back and forth like a windmill is to f' up an H pattern shift and get distracted.

    At 640hp in a lighter Viper I'd think a dual clutch 7sp would be perfect for a lot of buyers like me who aren't 20 anymore and want to have fun and not be right on the edge.

    For those laughing at road racing an auto - the smooth power delivery of turbo and auto is addictive, catapulting out of turns like a demon without breaking loose. Not quicker perhaps as no engine braking (there is in the AMG), but a great feeling to drive. On lower boost I can get 630hp down on a damp twisty road, most if it in the wet if I'm smooth; try that in a manual. The semi auto manuals are the best of both worlds IMHO though without a converter would have less traction than a true auto and be more like a manual where you drive on throttle.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2014
  14. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    Well, good thing there are still choices out there. I just installed the MGW Gripper in my Viper today, made me very happy:D I just hope my knees do not go out on me, LOL. Curious what you guys would be saying if Viper came with DCT and still did not sell? I honestly do not believe that problem lies in transmission choices. Viper is a great a great car marketed by incompetent people and sold along with minivans, it really would not make a difference in the great scheme of things if a couple more would sell.
     
  15. SnakeBitten

    SnakeBitten Enthusiast

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    I was obviously speaking from a street car perspective and you know it lol. Look at the track times between the manual street cars vs the DCT equipped street cars in the Vipers league at tracks like the Nurb, Laguna, VIR etc and you will see that the manual cars are right near or at the top hence my statement. Bringing in a full blown race car like the GT3-R was a funny attempt to skew the conversation.
     
  16. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    Well, I am looking at Viper ACR and Corvette ZR1, seem like very impressive ring times to me. I know there are manual conversions of GTR out there, could be interesting to see what car like that could do at the ring. 911 TTS does not offer manual, although surprise surprise, don't GT2 and GT3 come with manual transmission only? Mind you, TTS is faster in 0-60 but is certainly not the top dog in Porsche 911 line up .
     
  17. SnakeBitten

    SnakeBitten Enthusiast

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    Now you are getting where Im coming from. Notice the Porsches have a choice of transmissions albiet you have to choose different models to get them but its still a 911.

    I dont think the DCT necessarilly will transalate into big gains for the Viper around a circuit track time wise but its obvious that on the street it would be a huge difference in straight line acceleration. I'd say it would solve immensely the Vipers inability to hit 130mph despite more than enough power and lighter weight. With a DCT I'd expect it to help the snake hit 135mph+ traps easily imho. Those that track the car appear to not really "need" the DCT as the lap times show manual equipped cars are still at or near the top and are very competitive against the best DCT's in the streetcar arena. However, the street warriors, like I mentioned earlier could definitely use a DCT to make them competitive with the likes of the 12C, 911 TT S, GTR etc street and strip. The option would take care of both types of owners. I don't see the downside of a DCT option as everyone could get what they want without having to go to another brand.
     
  18. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    I chose Porsche track and race models since even GT2 RS is manual transmission only:D I do not dispute the viability of DTC as an option on Viper but simply point out that there may not be a business justification to spend non existent R&D money without assurance the investment is recovered. If strip gains are the concern, Hellcat is a simpler way to get there, maybe Chrysler can offer complimentary icepacks and rear seat delete option on the current Challenger. With that said, seeing the new DODGE Viper boss, Viper itself may become the rear seat delete option on the hopefully coming soon smaller and lighter Cuda? Cuda Hellcat would be a drag strip killer, IMO of course.
     
  19. klamathpro

    klamathpro Viper Owner

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    Very impressive ring times indeed, but would actually be faster with a DCT. That's why the much heavier, less hp, GT-R Nismo just did a 7:08 Ring time. There is no good explanation of why a 3900lbs car with 255/285 street tires can pull those numbers out of a hat they way they did. If you watch the video of the ACR going around the ring, there are dozens of gear shifts throughout. If you could take the average time it takes to gear shift a manual (500ms) and subtract it from the DCT's time (150ms), that's 350ms for each gear shift. Multiply that by say 50 gear changes and you have 17 seconds. Granted, you don't actually lose 17 seconds on the track, but let's say it was half that, maybe 8 seconds of on the pedal upshifting and downshifting. The ACR could have pulled it off in 7:04, in theory. DCT also allows you to change gears in turns that would normally be a dangerous transition because the gear ratios are spaced closer together and you don't get the abrupt clutch grab. What will be interesting is to see if the the new Z06 is faster as an 8 speed automatic around the Ring. But even then, it's not a DCT.

    I don't know if offering a DCT in the Viper would have impacted sales enough to offset the costs. All I know is, it would have won me over. I'm a die hard Viper fan and will always own one, but the GEN5 was too slow on the street for me. There were other factors that deterred me from it, but I would have bought a GEN5 instead of a GT-R if it would have been a 10 sec car with sub 3 sec 0-60's, and a DCT would definitely have achieved that based on MP4 and 458 Strada results. If I were 60 years old with a bum leg, it also would have won me over. At the end of the day, it's the bean counters that win.
     
  20. MoparMap

    MoparMap VCA National President Venom Member

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    The 0-60 time thing keeps bugging me. I know they changed the gearing in the new car, but I'm pretty sure the old one did 60 in first gear, so there were no shifts involved and a different style transmission wouldn't make any difference. Even if you're only shifting once it would maybe be a tenth faster based on the shift times listed above, and that small a difference is easily covered by environmental variability and traction issues. Wouldn't think it would make a huge difference in drag racing either if you're only shifting twice, but I can see it being a lot easier for road racing. Flipping a paddle is certainly much easier to do and wouldn't change your focus as much as a shift might.
     
  21. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    I do not think it is a good idea to automatically assume that if one car benefits from DTC, another would as well, there considerably more to overall performance of a car than simply a transmission swap. I would actually have reservations toward the Nismo GTR, its enhancements and methods used to measure this time, considering the results from the past. Nevertheless, I really do not think DTC is a magic ingredient that will take any car to higher level. If you look at the ring times, the fastest lap among 911 belongs to one with manual transmission.
     
  22. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    Maybe, maybe not...Too much attention is given to transmission and shifting while factors like vehicle weight, traction and few others are being ignored.
     
  23. Sybil TF

    Sybil TF Enthusiast

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    Yeah, maybe they should have both so the wimps have a choice......
     
  24. TrackAire

    TrackAire Enthusiast

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    The 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are very dependent on vehicle traction, weight, tire type, suspension design and vehicle center of gravity for the weight shift to the rear (only talking about rear wheel drive cars in this situation).

    The part that nobody seems to get is the Gen 4/5 Vipers are not as torque heavy down in the lower rpms as the Gen 2/3 were. You need to rev these new engines to get the most out of them. 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times do not win races....finishing in front of everybody else does. On a Gen 4 Viper, you can pretty much do the whole track at Sonoma Raceway in 3rd gear if you wanted to. Most of the published record "lap" times you see are of a car on the track by itself, not having to pass traffic. That is why on most tracks, the Gen 4/5 Viper can get by with 3rd and 4th gear except for the tightest of tracks or something with a super long straight like the Ring. If you watch the Gen 4 Ring record video (1st one), you'll see that the driver was bouncing off the rev limiter in both 3rd and many times off 4th because the stock Gen 4 has useless ratios in 5th and 6th gear. During the first Ring record, there was a head wind and the useless 5th gear would bog the car down and it would lose speed for the distance traveled....so it was "quicker" just to stay in 4th and bounce off the rev limiter. But, as soon as you have to pass traffic, you have either 3rd gear or 4th gear to use to pass with....and winding up the engine to its happy spot (maybe 5700 rpm to 6200 rpm) takes time when you only have two gears. Ten years ago, this wasn't too big of an issue for the Viper since it had so much power compared to everybody else. But now we have cars like the C6 Z06 that has pretty good gearing and 505 hp (assuming it is stock). If it is slightly slower than you and you catch it in the corners, good luck passing it safely if they guy accelerates hard on the straight since most cars have a higher rev limit than the Viper and don't lose time on multiple shifts (I believe the red line of a Z06 is near 7000 rpm). If you had some sort of auto that had 7 speeds and you could stay in your rpm happy spot the whole time while driving around the track and passing traffic, it would make your car a whole lot faster when overtaking other fast cars. Assuming you have the driving talent to do so, there are not many cars that can stay in front of a Viper Gen 4 or Gen 5 if the car stays between 5700 and 6200 rpm while accelerating and passing. But, every time you have to shift a manual trans Viper, the other guy can pull away a little further assuming he has the rpms and transmission ratios to keep it in his drive train sweet spot and pull another car length on you.

    A Viper will be much faster around the track when racing other cars when giving the ability to have the right ratio for the correct rpm range where the engine makes the most useful "speed". And that is where a fast shifting auto with multiple ratios to keep the engine in its sweet spot rpm range will devour a manually shifted Viper and the track. Every time you manually shift a Viper you might lose 1500 rpm as opposed to 500 or 600 rpm with an auto. On a 3 mile road course circuit, that adds up to a lot of physical "distance" over 10 laps.

    I understand 99% of the people that drive Vipers will never push the vehicle to that type of limit on the track, but that doesn't mean the car shouldn't be capable of doing it if asked to.
     
  25. Torquemonster

    Torquemonster Enthusiast

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    Exactly. While a good driver in a manual will still beat an average driver in a high tech electronic clutched car, apples to apples, us "whimps" are gonna whip dinosaur man most anywhere and have just as much fun. We'll probably sweat less too. Having said that, stick shifts have come some way since the Top loader days, so I'm not knocking them or the Viper driving experience. Just agreeing the Viper could shave more time off a lap with a high tech trans (Clutch auto not a converter auto).

    Converter autos are not suitable for a Viper IMHO, they're more for lazy point and squirt street and drag. they're no good for serious road or circuit racing, they get too hot.
     
  26. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    I remember my Z06, the car revved up happily and felt pretty nimble, almost do I dare to say light? And think about it, if only 1% would benefit, would you get consensus from the rest to pay for it? A lighter Viper could accomplish the goal and benefit everyone. 3k lbs Viper is doable, and it would be in the league of its own.
     
  27. FLL-B/W-GTS

    FLL-B/W-GTS Viper Owner

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    Having owned 3 Vipers,C6 Z06 and ZR1 ,I can tell you first hand that manual transmissions can not compare in any way to new DCTs on HP cars.On second Porsche 911 Turbo S 11/14 and the shifting days are over.Porsche does not offer manual trans in any new 911 Turbos,GT3,918s or future GT2s...Go test drive a 991 Turbo S and launch it in sport mode and you will will see for yourself.

    A Viper with a DCT would be a monster on the track,drag strip and street....Also,Dodge would then sell all they can make ,instead of hundreds sitting in the sun at dealer unsold...
     
  28. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    This is on the current Porsche website

    http://www.porsche.com/microsite/91...dvd_data=&specialguest=0&startWithLogin=false

    Go to section Powertrain and click on Power Transmission section to find out what Porsche has to say about manual transmission.

    I have a feeling that should DCT not make Viper any faster, you would be demanding 4WD next while assuring that this time it would win and sell. :D

    Here is how I see it with TTS: the car is a tidy package, keeping inferior layout alive. The car has to be fast to motivate buyers, bragging rights still sell and the car would be more than handful for majority of buyers between the horsepower and engine in the wrong location. Considering the expected buyer getting stuck in the stop and go traffic in downtown LA, there is no doubt these buyers will opt for automated transmission. DTC still has the full automated mode, last time I checked. What I would want to see is how well would DTC cars sell WITHOUT AUTO mode or are you trying to tell me that everyone keeps flapping the paddles all the time?

    Lastly, can you flap the paddles faster than car itself in full auto? From what I see, you can get better lap times letting car do the shifting, thus, why even bother to flap the paddles in the first place. Seems to me the car is in control, not you. Apparently I am a part of small minority but I'll pass on the whole thing altogether. The key here is that the big complaint is that THE CAR CAN BE FASTER which I am sure it can be but so what?
     
  29. 05Commemorative

    05Commemorative Enthusiast

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    So, let me sum up your feedback as now you agree the car would be faster AND easier to drive with an auto (even though you have been debating it would not be) and then you want to fall back on it is not for you as the car will now magically driving itself. Did I get it right? So, then why do you care if it is an option for others that would both want a car that is faster and easier to drive for their situations? Why do you car if someone is using the paddles or not? Make it an option as it clearly has obvious advantages for many and still have the manual for those that want that.

     
  30. PeterMJ

    PeterMJ Enthusiast

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    Nope, I did not say anything close to it.

    I simply stated some facts regarding Porsche 911 cars such as these particular cars are fast in their DTC version but only in straight line and that this particular car in auto mode is lapping faster versus someone flapping the paddles. I also stated the fact that track and race cars, GT3, GT2 and GT2 RS do not come with DTC option.

    I think that Chrysler should test DTC equipped Viper to put speculations of enthusiasts to rest and determine if indeed this would be the case. Personally, I think it is right down silly to demand a different type of transmission because it makes a difference on all wheel drive rear engine car but this is just me... I am not a great fan of keeping up with the Joneses mentality.

    To me, major expensive changes should make a good business sense and without quantifying the results and credible market study, all of this would amount to another exercise in futility and jeopardizing the already bleak future the Viper already faces. I hope this is clear enough.
     

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