Monday we find out who is faster at Laguna Seca, ZR1 or Gen V

[bluestreak]

Again I reiterate PMUM beat Pobst at Laguna Seca in a Viper at a WCGT, just takes someone with some balls to drive it.

A competition coupe on slicks in a race vs pobst in a porsche cup car in one race has little to do with street cars on street tires.

The mpsc on a track as long as laguna is worth over 1 second possibly 2 seconds over corsas. Dont forget the zr1 ps2 were not regular run of the mill ps2's. I would bet money back to back tests on the gen v would net 1.5 or more seconds with mpsc over corsas. They simply are not good for their tread rating. That is srt's fault not Randy.

The gen v needs to be around 1.5 second plus faster than the zr1 just to get and equal or close time. What would really stick it to MT is for Ralph to beat Randy's time. He's pretty darn good on the track. But I still do not think his comments were very professional for a President of srt. Nothing to talk about, just go and beat the time.

 

[phavyarden]

Can make a huge difference. But 2 seconds? PZero Corsa are also R-compound tires.
Mclaren uses it and it did 34.x

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Just wanted to post this pic of Paul on top of the podium with Pobst in 2nd

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You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Jack B]

Those numbers will close, however, the item that bothers me is the fact that on every straight the zr1 was about two mph faster. That is an indicator of more hp when you have equal weights. If I were SRT I would dyno that car and figure out why the hp is down.

Another question that has to be answered is whether this car had the two piece rotors (track pack). Those are supposed to be a huge improvement over the Gen IV brakes. If it had the improved rotors why were the brakes such a problem. It seems the ACR's did not have a brake issue at this track and these brakes should be better if they were track pack versions..

Someone made a very good comment, Ralph has to have a more professional answer and a solution. It is a good thing that we still have our guns and bibles.

 

[speedracervr4]

LOL, this is the VCA meltdown thread..I'm gonna sell my GTS because Motor Trend says the ZR1 is faster.

 

[VENOM V]

LOL, this is the VCA meltdown thread..I'm gonna sell my GTS because Motor Trend says the ZR1 is faster.

LOL, agreed. It has been an entertaining read, none the less! I think the guys that are cancelling orders were never really convinced that the Gen V was right for them. Nothing wrong with that, I wouldn't spend this kind of green unless I was head over heels. And I must be, because although I would've liked the Viper to take the win, it hasn't swayed me one bit.

 

[bluestreak]

Can make a huge difference. But 2 seconds? PZero Corsa are also R-compound tires.
Mclaren uses it and it did 34.x

Dont be confused by tire rating. Manufacturers of tires make their own rating. Porsche has its own mpsc as oem tires and they are no where near as fast as the ones on gen iv or z07 or zr1. Some people have tested corsas back to back and beat them with no r rated tires. Look at Porsche forums and Ferrari forums where these have come oem and the consensus is that they **** for their rating. Thats why Pirelli recently releases the trofeo to compete with the mpsc. Vastly superior to corsas. I personally have done back to back with mpsc and nt01 and the mspc were 1.5 faster same day same car, same driver at Road Atlanta which is similar to Laguna distance and lap time wise. Did 1:32.6 on mpsc and 1:34.1 on nt01. Full weight 996 Turbo. Nt01 are faster than corsa. Like I said, ill put money on it 1.5+ on a back to back test.

 

[v10viperbox]

The gen v needs to be around 1.5 second plus faster than the zr1 just to get and equal or close time. What would really stick it to MT is for Ralph to beat Randy's time. He's pretty darn good on the track. But I still do not think his comments were very professional for a President of srt. Nothing to talk about, just go and beat the time.

I really don't like Ralph but he kind of has a point. It took 10 years of development of the chassis (c6) and a pro driver to beat the 1:33 record with there absolute top of the line track model, and the viper did it in 3 years with almost no monetary support and with a non pro driver with a bit of aero. (Gen IV)

The tires are huge for me, and who sends out a GTS with the extra weight for a track test when a SRT with track pack is what 90% of the people on here are going to more then likely buy if they track their cars. Plus if we get a ACR its going to have some form of aero.

Its not motortrend without a good bit of trolling around for mag sales though, would not stop me from getting a Gen V if I had the space.

 

[mnc2886]

Should SRT remove this before it hits production?

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The only reason I say this is because there is an element of arrogance displayed by having this as part of the vehicle. I'm not saying that having a bit of arrogance is a bad thing, but this will be a joke to the car world now. SRT should not have lost this battle and they know it. Do I think we'll have the record back? Yes, but as stated, the Viper should be beating the 4 year old Vette by the margin it just got beat by.

Look, I'm not throwing in the towel on SRT. I believe they will fix it, but this mistake looks terrible. With everything we keep seeing, the 2013 isn't ready for the car world yet. It just isn't.

- Body gaps, ride height, and build quality haven't been matched since the reveal car. (Hell, we even heard an excuse from Ralph about the trunk not being closed on the LE Viper, but it actually looks that way.)
- Everyone has complained about the brakes not holding up. Seriously, no excuse there.
- HP increase seemed mild.
- In hindsight, the suspension and chassis refinements seem to be a talking point and nothing so far shows an actual improvement. I say that because SRT won't publish performance numbers and no one testing the Viper is improving over the Gen IV.

All this makes the Viper seem rushed. Let's face it, they have done a lot in a short amount of time, but maybe this should have been a 2014 car.

Like I said, I won't throw in the towel on the Viper because the 2014 or 2015 will more than likely have all the fixes the 2013 should have had. The ACR can't be too far around the corner either. My advise to SRT would be bring a Viper with the aero kit and decent tires back to Laguna and get it done. If they can't, they have a whole host of bigger problems.

 

[ipetrov]

MT: "The VBOX’s speed trace asserts the Viper pulls harder than the ZR1 on the straights";

MT: "The sprint to the finish is really close, and you can say the ZR1’s 0.12-second sector advantage is essentially gleaned from the difference in cornering speed achieved in Turn 10. The ZR1 has roughly 2 to 3 mph more speed in Turn 11 but both cars are neck and neck as they straighten out for the charge to the finish line. By the time the lap ends, the Viper is moving over 1 mph faster than the ZR1."

Source: http://wot.motortrend.com/corvette-...d-lap-time-analysis-304727.html#axzz2FAC0ZciM

It appears the Viper is signifficantly slower (3-7 mph) on corners, some of that due to Pobst breaking earlier, which accumulates corner after corner. Viper actually closes a little bit of the gap on the straights.

Those numbers will close, however, the item that bothers me is the fact that on every straight the zr1 was about two mph faster. That is an indicator of more hp when you have equal weights. If I were SRT I would dyno that car and figure out why the hp is down.

Another question that has to be answered is whether this car had the two piece rotors (track pack). Those are supposed to be a huge improvement over the Gen IV brakes. If it had the improved rotors why were the brakes such a problem. It seems the ACR's did not have a brake issue at this track and these brakes should be better if they were track pack versions..

Someone made a very good comment, Ralph has to have a more professional answer and a solution. It is a good thing that we still have our guns and bibles.

 

[Tiago]

Those numbers will close, however, the item that bothers me is the fact that on every straight the zr1 was about two mph faster. That is an indicator of more hp when you have equal weights. If I were SRT I would dyno that car and figure out why the hp is down.

the ZR1 was braking later, thats why it hit higher MPH.

 

[bluestreak]

They sent the gts because they wanted good reviews on the interior and refinement of the vehicle. They added track pack wheels and tires for the performance. This is actually encouraging. A lighter meaner full track pack viper on mpsc has a lot of time to gain imo.

As for pro driver blah blah. The zr1 beat the acr with no wing or dive planes etc. That speaks more volumes to most than pro driver this or that.

I really don't like Ralph but he kind of has a point. It took 10 years of development of the chassis (c6) and a pro driver to beat the 1:33 record with there absolute top of the line track model, and the viper did it in 3 years with almost no monetary support and with a non pro driver with a bit of aero.

The tires are huge for me, and who sends out a GTS with the extra weight for a track test when a SRT with track pack is what 90% of the people on here are going to more then likely buy if they track their cars. Plus if we get a ACR its going to have some form of aero.

Its not motortrend without a good bit of trolling around for mag sales though, would not stop me from getting a Gen V if I had the space.

 

[Alabaster Mamba]

I think Pobst's numbers with the old ACR speak for themselves - maybe which is why I see this all as a moot point.

I agree with Bobpantax, someone is going to jump in an SRT and run over the ZR1.

So true. Randy's old time was over a second slower than Winkler's time. Now imagine if we had someone like Kuno in the Viper who knows and understands how to get the most out of the car. Something else that we aren't considering is the fact that even though base Viper's aren't exactly a base like any other car, it still isn't an ACR version. Now this ZR1 isn't exactly the run of the mill C6 base model either. It is the top level of Corvette. It is kind of like saying that the X car track version beat the base level 911 versus the GT3. Either way, the ZR1 did an outstanding job.

 

[Rizzo]

First off Congrats to the Chevy team for making an unbelievable car that is world beating. Second. In this round the Viper did the best it could. The driver drove as fast as he could. I was totally disappointed and would have loved to see the Viper kick the Vettes as$ but it didnt happen and unfortunatley we got our as$ handed to us. I have questioned SRT's unveiling of the Viper since day 1. There were shots all over the place of 4x4 looking Vipers with horrible panel gaps that just made it look stupid. Then they drove them around with ugly rims that didnt even match? They know the second people see them on the street they are going to take pics and put them on the net. I cant imagine Ferrari letting out a test model that looked this bad. They protect their image. Why didnt SRT? That just bugged the sh&t out of me. You never get a chance to make a good first impression. Then we have this debacle where the ZR1 spanked us. Why in the world would SRT allow a non sorted car to go head to head with the main car they are competing against?? It just doesnt make sense to me. I would think they would have sent a tested car with the best options that were optimized for that track. Especially when it was MT doing the testing who they know have been less than complimentary to the car in the past?? If I had an order on a new one I wouldnt cancel it but it sure would have taken the wind out of my sails. I like the Vettes. Great cars and the owners of them should be proud. I just like Vipers more and was expecting more. Excuses are for loosers. Real men take their licks and get back on the saddle and try harder. I cant wait for someone to take a full production car out to the track and beat the record. I think the sooner it happens the better as this loss will be tough to come back from and the Vette guys are having a blast with it as they should.... and just like we would all be doing if the results were reversed. If I were Ralph I would stop making Tweets with excuses. Just get a damn car back to the track and do it right this time.

 

[ViperSmith]

Although I can't drive very fast on the track (compared to a pro), I am pretty talented around around the Cars and Coffee crowd......hearing comments like "Isn't the ZR1 faster then this new Viper?" and "Doesn't the new Ford Mustang GT500 run a faster quarter mile than the new Viper for like half the money?" would piss me off.

At $150k out the door for a GTS, I want something that is sorted out. The problem is this, once you're at $150k, you have a lot of other options to have fun in.

Bet the 2014 Vipers will be the awesome

Cheers,

Jorge (the name I use when I go see Dr Phil)

And the ZR1 ate the lunch of the $400k Aventador, $300k McLaren, and the $300k 458 - do those owners get **********? I doubt it.

These are all amazing cars in their own class.

 

[viperdrummer]

OK. Let's have a friendly bet. I say that when SRT runs the car at Leguna with a driver familiar with the car that they will retake the record. You seem to believe they will not. So how about a bet of $100.00 payable to the Wounded Warriors? OK?

Not sure what " familiar with the car" entails , but lets make it interesting and say $1000.00. After all , a day ago you said the Viper would take it by 2 seconds .( and I have, for now a Launch Edition on order).

 

[A1998]

WOW! I can't believe MOPARBOY hasn't responded in this thread I'm sure he would have been the first to tell you that if the Viper would have been YELLOW instead of red, we would all be celebrating now. He Must be on Vacation.

 

[anaconda666]

I think the SRT design team needs to watch this Dodge commercial...

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=o4iWbgdPuPA&desktop_uri=/watch?v=o4iWbgdPuPA

...and follow my signature - translated it means "Ever onward to Victory"

 

[Garron]

WOW! I can't believe MOPARBOY hasn't responded in this thread I'm sure he would have been the first to tell you that if the Viper would have been YELLOW instead of red, we would all be celebrating now. He Must be on Vacation.

We are trying to talk him off a tall building right now, he is very upset about the MT article.

 

[JohnnyLightning]

Wow even the ZO6 is faster LOL. For 141k all I have to say is what a FAIL. Shame on SRT asking a stupid price and getting what nothing in return. The GTS has doubled in price since 96 and the ZR1 has gone from 78k to 112k which is justified in what you get. This car should be a 105k at best with 140k on the ACR. I feel sorry for anyone buying this car at 140k because the GTR looks like a bargain with its technology/refinement over this car. If I see a new Viper driving and a 96 GTS comes up aside you laughing its me and thats because I laugh at suckers. Its going to be hard when I see a Gen V pull next to a Lotus Evora at cars and coffee. I might not be able to restrain myself if that happens. This Gen V reminds of a Mazda back in 2003 the RX8. Worked so hard to make it so nice inside they forgot to back up the peformance for its hefty price tag. Therefore the RX7 guys never converted over so they had to reposition the car as a family sports sedan. Maybe SRT has a plan to market this car against BMWs, Mercedez, Porsche for luxary and style. Then utimately making a 4door version of the Viper like they have.

 

[JAY]

I heard he was re engineering a New Car, for the Test !!!.........lol !

We are trying to talk him off a tall building right now, he is very upset about the MT article.

 

[Rizzo]

Wow even the ZO6 is faster LOL. For 141k all I have to say is what a FAIL. Shame on SRT asking a stupid price and getting what nothing in return. The GTS has doubled in price since 96 and the ZR1 has gone from 78k to 112k which is justified in what you get. This car should be a 105k at best with 140k on the ACR. I feel sorry for anyone buying this car at 140k because the GTR looks like a bargain with its technology/refinement over this car. If I see a new Viper driving and a 96 GTS comes up aside you laughing its me and thats because I laugh at suckers.

The GTR is an amazing car technology wise but its so damn FUGLY. I dont think a lot of guys on this forum are comparing a Viper to a riced out Altima. Hahaha

 

[ACR steve]

Iagree with MTGTS

To elaborate though: to me the way the numbers look and the comments made bymaybe not the fastest driver in the world but a good test driver indicate thatthe new Pirellis are just not up to Pilot Cup performance. Usually when I lookat performance at the limit it is a tire induced limit and not the cars limit.Not to take anything from the Z06 it’s a great machine but I think theperformance of the Viper is really being limited by the tire. Pirelli may be agood tire but the king of street tires for the track is still the Cup's. Iwould wager the same car on Cups will be 2 seconds faster at the very least. Ithink Pirelli needs to tweak its compound some. Knowing most of the SRTengineers and how they live/ breath the Viper even more then we do I can guarantee there ismore tweaking to come on the production car.


For all those who are disappointed rememberCorvettes fastest and most predictable track car is the Z-06 our fastest andmost predictable car is the ACR . Be proud that our best is still to come

 

[JohnnyLightning]

The GTR is an amazing car technology wise but its so damn FUGLY. I dont think a lot of guys on this forum are comparing a Viper to a riced out Altima. Hahaha

Your right us Viper owners are too cool to think riced out Altima's can hang. hahahahahaha I bet if God drove a car it would be a Gen V. hahahahahaha

 

[BigDawg]

And the ZR1 ate the lunch of the $400k Aventador, $300k McLaren, and the $300k 458 - do those owners get **********? I doubt it.

These are all amazing cars in their own class.

There seems to be some common confusion here. The Viper was a pariah outcast from the flock. The Corvette never was. It was just another good sports car. Quit thinking of them as equals. The Corvette is an American mass produced superb sports car, the Viper is a low volume American exotic. The only reason the rivalry developed is because there is no other competition out there for the vette in terms of price and performance. They are *supposed to be* completely different animals.

How Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette, etc. drivers would react in the same situation is completely irrelevant. They're used to not being the fastest and making excuses. The Viper legacy has always been different. No excuses, no apologies. As mentioned here countless times, the sports car and exotic world is saturated with "me-too's". Different sides of the same coin. The Viper was different. We didn't need another of the same.

On the bright side, this thread has been very entertaining and provided some good laughs.

 

[plumcrazy]

i have a feeling someone is getting a "talking to" from ralph cause this is embarrassing no matter how you look at it

 

[Jack B]

the ZR1 was braking later, thats why it hit higher MPH.

If you read the write-up they initially brake the same. The higher mph was too consistent, every straight. The corvette did not have a braking advantage on every corner. If that were the case there would be more than two seconds diff.

 

[bluestreak]

Pirelli has tweaked the compound. Its called the trofeo. Just not on the Viper but much more in line with sport cups.

Iagree with MTGTS

To elaborate though: to me the way the numbers look and the comments made bymaybe not the fastest driver in the world but a good test driver indicate thatthe new Pirellis are just not up to Pilot Cup performance. Usually when I lookat performance at the limit it is a tire induced limit and not the cars limit.Not to take anything from the Z06 it’s a great machine but I think theperformance of the Viper is really being limited by the tire. Pirelli may be agood tire but the king of street tires for the track is still the Cup's. Iwould wager the same car on Cups will be 2 seconds faster at the very least. Ithink Pirelli needs to tweak its compound some. Knowing most of the SRTengineers and how they live/ breath the Viper even more then we do I can guarantee there ismore tweaking to come on the production car.


For all those who are disappointed rememberCorvettes fastest and most predictable track car is the Z-06 our fastest andmost predictable car is the ACR . Be proud that our best is still to come

 

[ACRucrazy]

http://www.allpar.com/news/index.php/2012/12/gilles-calls-motor-trend-chicken

Jalopnik reported say that SRT CEO Ralph Gilles called out the test driver at Motor Trend for being scared of the 2013 SRT Viper during a recent comparison test of the 2013 SRT Viper and the ZR1 Corvette. Ralph Gilles wrote that fear of the Viper was a factor in the test results, after three-time SCCA World Challenge champion Randy Probst piloted the Corvette around the course slightly more quickly than the Viper. Gilles tweeted, “…There is a lot more left in the car, Randy has always struggled with the Viper.” While Jalopnik defended Probst’s skills, they also had some support for Gilles’ criticism, noting that the magazine called the Viper scary to drive and that the “hard to handle” nature of the Viper is a draw for its buyers. Jalopnik also pointed out that Motor Trend‘s competition and handling of the comparison is “… exactly why they do it. It’s thoughtless trolling and they do it all the time because it works every time. Have no fear Ralph, a Viper, perhaps an ACR or something, will be pitted against a Corvette again. Trust us. … it might happen next month. This is also what they do. It’s called “building a narrative” and this is only the latest chapter. Useful reportage? Maybe not, but it is good theatre and Gilles is playing along nice”

 

[Jack B]

Thanks - very interesting write-up

MT: "The VBOX’s speed trace asserts the Viper pulls harder than the ZR1 on the straights";

MT: "The sprint to the finish is really close, and you can say the ZR1’s 0.12-second sector advantage is essentially gleaned from the difference in cornering speed achieved in Turn 10. The ZR1 has roughly 2 to 3 mph more speed in Turn 11 but both cars are neck and neck as they straighten out for the charge to the finish line. By the time the lap ends, the Viper is moving over 1 mph faster than the ZR1."

Source: http://wot.motortrend.com/corvette-...d-lap-time-analysis-304727.html#axzz2FAC0ZciM

It appears the Viper is signifficantly slower (3-7 mph) on corners, some of that due to Pobst breaking earlier, which accumulates corner after corner. Viper actually closes a little bit of the gap on the straights.