Motor Trend: Mini Cooper Beats SRT in slalom

[toddt]

In the Car Of The Year issue, the Mini Cooper S went almost 2MPH faster through the cones than the SRT-10.

I don't know who should be embarrased--the Motor Trend drivers or PVO.

Braking--SRT = 104 ft. Fantastic, but not the 90 feet whispered about.
G35= 112 ft. Just one foot more than a Z06!

Other numbers from th motor trend article:

0-60 4.12
1/4 12.34 @117.2

High altitude test, maybe?

It WAS a press car--I know because they said the heat was overwhelming in the footwells. And we all know that problem is fixed, right? RIGHT?

So, to recap:
Goals for SRT-10 (From Viper Magazine, Fall 2002)
0-100-0 13.2 seconds
0-60 under 4 seconds
0-100 under 10 seconds
1/4 under 12 seconds

So how are we doing?
0-100-0 untried as far as I know
0-60 4.0 is the best I've seen published
0-100 untried as far as I know
1/4 12.1 is the best I've seen published.

Hmm, published numbers so far are not as good as stock GTS's.
I'm really hoping someone gets a hold of this car and turns this trend around.

 

[SRT10]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by toddt:

Hmm, published numbers so far are not as good as stock GTS's.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, I flip open that Motor Trend to Road Test Results for all cars.... no "plain" GTS but a 2k GTS ACR and it says...

0-60 = 4.1
1/4 = 12.2 @ 119
braking 70 to 0 = 121 ft

SRT beats all these numbers..let me get a Car & Driver mag..11/02
page 174. Look, another 2k GTS ACR lets see

0-60 = 4.3
1/4 mile= 12.6
braking 70-0 = 186 ft !!!

SRT beats these numbers again. Sorry Toddt but these mags don't agree with you!

 

[1TONY1]

Kinda like being out gunned in a autocross by the little guys
(a few, not many).....anywhere else and there toast.

 

[treynor]

I can certainly believe a Mini's faster than a Viper through the slalom. Probably gets better gas mileage too

Put the two cars on a roadcourse... or dragstrip... or parking lot... and the Viper might just have the edge.

 

[toddt]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SRT10:
SRT beats these numbers again. Sorry Toddt but these mags don't agree with you!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems like you're trotting out some pretty slow published numbers.

There are plain gts numbers out there that scorch these.

Everyone who's been around here for a couple of years knows it, too.

I'm really WANTING to believe in the SRT...It's just that it's having a slow start, literally.

I'm supposed to be impressed with a 12.1 at C/D? _I_ got a 12.1 in my car! Check my sig. And I'm as boney bone stock as they come.

I suspect some of the reason for all this is that the mag. editors just don't bother to even try to launch the car right. Some have openly admitted that they simply launch "with wheelspin" all the cars they test. That certainly gives up a bunch of time. I found wheelspin to be worth .5 seconds at the track, easily.

I'm REALLLLY happy with that 8.5 0-100 though!!!
That's more than a SECOND off the genII time!!

Thanks for the info.

 

[SRT10]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by toddt:
Seems like you're trotting out some pretty slow published numbers.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Toddt, these published numbers are from a mag you brought up. Does "Motor Trend: Mini Cooper beats SRT in slalom" ring a bell?

[QUOTE}Originally posted by toddt:
I'm supposed to be impressed with a 12.1 at C/D? _I_ got a 12.1 in my car! Check my sig. And[/QUOTE]

Toddt, the same C/D posted a 12.6 with a ACR!! Thats 12.1 with the SRT and 12.6 with the GTS ACR.

The bottom line is its ridiculous to compare numbers like this since too many variables come into play.

If you want to see something impressive get the Car & Driver January 2003 issue, page 44. 10 Best Performers 2002..
The SRT is tops in 3 catagories.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

About the initial "high" or "poor" performance #'s:

Remember that back in 96 initial 1/4 mile times were 12.5 with 0-60 times being 4.5.

JUST GIVE THE CAR SOME TIME. THEY AREN'T EVEN TESTING CURRENT PRODUCTION CARS.

Also, mags have a 3 month lead time, meaning this car was tested back in late october.

 

[GTS Bruce]

Nice test.Mini beats Viper.What's next?Go cart beats all through slalom and is crowned King of the world? Bruce

 

[SnakeBitten]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

I'm REALLLLY happy with that 8.5 0-100 though!!!
That's more than a SECOND off the genII time!!

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually its only .3 faster than the GenII's...Look at any of the the High Speed Shootouts MT has done in the past few years and you will see the GTS gets to 100 in 8.8 secs...However these were well broken in GTS's...

The SRT nums so far are not from broken in cars..So that 0-100 may get even lower than an 8.5...Wow

 

[toddt]

Many seem pretty quick to dismiss the Coop beating the SRT.

I am not.

2001 Motor Trend (same magazine I posted about in the first place):

Slalom:
Viper ACR 70.8 (1st place)
Ford SVT Cobra R 69.40
Ferrari 360 Modena 68.90
Porsche 911 Turbo 68.60
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 68.50
Shelby Series 1 Supercharged 66.00
BMW Z8 64.80
Pontaic Trans Am Firehawk 64.10
Qvale Mangusta 62.40


The SRT got 67.low (Sorry, don't remember the actual number--trying to forget

)

No matter how you slice it, that's not good. Did the press cars have reduced suspension performance? I didn't hear of any such thing.

 

[toddt]

By the way, in the same road test (motor trend)
the ACR got a 0-100 of
Dodge Viper ACR 9.56

This is over a second off the car and driver results above.

See all of these amazing numbers from the November 2001 Motor Trend shoot out (where the ACR did astoundingly well) at:
http://ultimateviper.com/docs/roadtests.html

 

[91ZR1#661]

95yellovett

 

[Guyver1]

There are really just toooo many variables to even consider that a fair test. Furthermore, as I remember the SRT wasn't even tested on asphalt...

Secondly, look at the Z06 specs from the same magazine test as the SRT...

0-60 in 4.6
0-100 in 10.27
1/4 in 12.85 @ 114.36mph
slalom at 66.7 mph.

Now I ask you, in what sad sad world does a Z06 run that badly? Actually, in the most recent issue of Motor Trend, some Vette owners wrote-in and complained about the fact that the Corvette did so badly. The reply? The car was tested in unfavorable conditions, and if it had been tested under better conditions, the Viper's figures would've gone-up as well.

 

[SRT10]

Car and Driver 10 best performers of 2002
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/10best/2003/2003_10best_cars_intro.xml?&keywords=nl1219mainp&page=2

 

[toddt]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guyver1:

0-60 in 4.6
0-100 in 10.27
1/4 in 12.85 @ 114.36mph
slalom at 66.7 mph.

Now I ask you, in what sad sad world does a Z06 run that badly? .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hate to be the one to tell you this, but no magazine I've ever seen has gotten a Z06 to acheive Chevy's ridiculous claim (which they aren't giving up on) of sub-4 second 0-60s. They just don't do it. Vette guys don't want to be bothered with the facts.

My friend with the 2001 Z06 (Carbon fiber intake, exhaust) was pulling 12.8@112/3 ALL DAY with his car. (Well, not ALL day, he started out in the 13's.) Those numbers are REAL. The numbers they got out of the viper in the same test are REAL. That Motor Trend test of November 2001 cannot be dismissed by zog drivers, much as they'd like to.

Give it up vetteboys, your car is not at the level of the 97 GTS yet. Not the 2001, not the 2002.

Ugh, this is such a tired topic. I read where someone said the better driver wins in a contest between a 2002 and a GTS.

Well, if I have to pick a car to drive in that contest, 100 times out of 100 I would pick the GTS, and would expect to win every time.

This is what I'm afraid might happen with the SRT. Denial, denial, denial.

 

[spdrcrj]

LMAO @ GTS Bruce.

 

[jrkermode]

I think you all are putting too much faith in little numbers. The various magazines often differ from each another and the manufacturer. There are simply too many variables.

For example, Car & Driver had a supertuner shootout a few months back. I was surprised to see that times for the stockers were so close to the tuners. Didn't make sense. So, I went to the C&D site to look at additional data. The numbers were all over the place. Randomly pick a run for eveybody, and virtually any car and driver combo could have been the "winner".

In the real world (NHRA, SCTA), the only numbers that count are the ones you can back-up. In the magazine world, the rag with the best number wins, so there is very little incentive for them to publish real world, repeatable numbers.

 

[Guyver1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by toddt:
Hate to be the one to tell you this, but no magazine I've ever seen has gotten a Z06 to acheive Chevy's ridiculous claim (which they aren't giving up on) of sub-4 second 0-60s. They just don't do it. Vette guys don't want to be bothered with the facts.

My friend with the 2001 Z06 (Carbon fiber intake, exhaust) was pulling 12.8@112/3 ALL DAY with his car. (Well, not ALL day, he started out in the 13's.) Those numbers are REAL. The numbers they got out of the viper in the same test are REAL. That Motor Trend test of November 2001 cannot be dismissed by zog drivers, much as they'd like to.

Give it up vetteboys, your car is not at the level of the 97 GTS yet. Not the 2001, not the 2002.

Ugh, this is such a tired topic. I read where someone said the better driver wins in a contest between a 2002 and a GTS.

Well, if I have to pick a car to drive in that contest, 100 times out of 100 I would pick the GTS, and would expect to win every time.

This is what I'm afraid might happen with the SRT. Denial, denial, denial.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, no magazine has been able to emulate GM's claims, but there have been drivers who have been able to emulate them. Secondly, one can not compare their own times, on a local track to a magazine test time.

I know friends who are running stock and near-stock Z06's in the mid to low 12's, so that clearly means diddly. Just because you're friend isn't too fast doesn't mean another person on another track isn't. Don't forget that times on different tracks vary considerably due to prep and conditions. A Viper may run a 11.76 at Englishtown, then barely break the 12's at Epping. (and these are REAL numbers too)

Like it or not, the Z06 is much closer than quite a few Viper owners would care to admit.

Also, I take offense to being called a Vetteboy I'm a Viper fan through and through, but I'll admit when another piece of machinery is fast.

 

[Guyver1]

Actually, in the Feb 02 issue of Motor Trend...

Corvette Z06
0-60: 4.07 seconds
0-100: 9.48 seconds
1/4 mile: 12.48 @ 114.9
600ft slalom: 70.3mph
60-0: 104 ft

On the day of the Viper test, the Z was considerably off.

Furthermore, the best numbers managed for a Viper by Motor Trend were in a 2000 ACR...

0-60: 4.1
1/4 mile: 12.2 @ 119mph
60-0: 121 ft
600ft slalom: 70.8 mph

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Guyver1 on 01-10-2003 at 08:48 PM</font>

 

[viper258]

...and if one were to factor in FUN (which the Viper is notorious for); sorry folks, no contest!!

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

I wonder what kind of 0-60 times the vette would pull with stock vette gears?

It's quicker because of the gears. How bout a race to top speed?

 

[jwwiii]

Hello;

I gotta tell you that I first drove a Mini-Cooper back in the late 70's, and the things handle incredibly.

I have owned 2 Vipers so far and have an SRT arriving this coming week; but, there is something I need to tell you honestly.

If I were to have to pick between the Viper or a Mini-Cooper S to have to race for my life in an area like downtown tight streets; I would choose the Mini-Cooper S any day!

WHY? Because the Viper is just "too much" on one block/1/2 block agility. The Mini is so nimble and TINY, and it's revs stay up in the peak zone. In my opinion, the Gen 1 and Gen II wouls be scary in a race like that because there is soooo much power instantly and the Viper would be a handfull on super tight turns. Funny this subject was posted because I have told friends for years that the Mini S would be the ultimate "get-away" car on busy streets. IT IS A GO-CART.

I can't wait for my next Viper! Drive a Mini S and you will be very surprised indeed at it's cornering and turning ability. They are a BLAST to drive. Other than that, obviously, IT's NO CONTEST in any other way.

Please, don't flame me as I'm one of you. Just drive one of those little suckers and you WILL grin for sure. HEY, we're BACK ON TOPIC!

Jim

 

[M. ROD]

Posted by Guyver1:

{"Furthermore, the best numbers managed for a Viper by Motor Trend were in a 2000 ACR.

0-60 - 4.1
1/4 mile - 12.2@119mph
60-0 - 121ft
600ft slalom - 70.8mph"}

MMMM.... I think NOT.

*1997 M.T. Shooout:

0-60mph=&gt; 4.0sec.
0-100mph=&gt; 8.8sec.
1/4mile=&gt; [email protected]
1 mile=&gt; [email protected]
Top Speed=&gt; 187.3mph
Skidpad=&gt; 1.01g
Slalom=&gt; 73.6mph(Stock production car record)
0-100-0mph=&gt; 13.9sec.
60-0mph=&gt; 129ft

*1998 M.T. Shootout:

0-60mph=&gt; 4.1sec.
0-100mph=&gt; 8.8sec.
1/4mile=&gt; [email protected]
1 mile=&gt; [email protected]
Top Speed=&gt; 192.6mph
Skidpad=&gt; 1.01g
Slalom=&gt;72.5mph
0-100-0mph=&gt;13.7sec.

Plus: 0-150mph;

ZO6=&gt; 28sec.
Viper=&gt; 22.5sec.

Thats a BIG margin. the ZO6 is a great car but the Viper is still the King.

P.S. Car & Driver got Gen II Vipers to 60mph in 3.9secs and to 100mph in 8.7secs.

 

[toddt]

So here again, we see huge numbers for the GTS in the slalom, way above the SRT or the mini coop. I'm resigned to thinking simply that the drivers in this latest test did not have the guts or did not have the experience to drive the SRT hard.

Do they use different drivers when they do things like the high performance shoot-outs? They must.

There's no doubt in my mind that it would be less scary to go through the cones in the coop, than the SRT.

Perhaps that's the thing we're seeing here.

Perhaps, on the other hand, they've changed the slalom specs.

Who knows. I just know that the SRT looks magnificent from the 3/4 rear view..wow, what a car!!!

(and it's pretty fast, too)

 

[Torquemonster]

Interesting thread. Two points come to mind. Magazine benchmarks and real world performance are often worlds apart.... at least if real world means winding road courses with bumps and dips etc.

A large and relatively heavy car like a Viper is never going to match a lightweight go-kart Mini on very tight turns - its simple laws of physics.

HOWEVER, try cornering (or even keeping it straight)a Mini at 150mph around a track and see how the two compare! Assuming you turbo'd a Mini to get to that speed, you'd need diapers to throw something that short a wheelbase around at that speed. If you think a Viper can spin quickly, try tossing a mini at very high speed and see if you can save it... with the power per weight equal it'd be even worse than a 600hp Cobra

The Viper is meant to run fast on highways and at the track - and that it does better than a Mini ever could dream of. For really twisty roads and tight bends - especially ones with dips and bumps - its small car territory, and the likes of a Subaru WRX turbo 4wd or Mitsi EVO would run rings around any of the supercars because they are small and have traction and state of art suspension from years of world rally experience where they race insane speeds over jumps, on gravel etc etc. On secondary roads they are simply the fastest point to point road cars you can buy other than modifed versions of the same. But in the USA you have much better roads, so who cares. I see overseas magazines say mixed things about Vipers but they miss the point... drive the Viper on the roads it is meant for and they're awesome! Trying to point one down narrow English lanes as fast as a small sports car isn't the kind of fun they were built for. Silly English for not having the foresight to build wider roads.

Mini's are hilirious to drive... but the novelty wears off if you like horsepower.... and that's what the Viper excels at.

I think the Viper does a great job for its weight to change direction as fast as it does, and on the more open, smooth roads its meant for is hardly concerned about small cars other than running them over.

re magazine tests. Not sure about USA but the standard for magazine tests here and many other countries is to run cars two up - meaning they always have a passenger. If the USA is the same, that would account for why you can beat their times.. not to mention the added power as the engine loosens up.

 

[Russ Oasis]

You guys who expect greater improvements in time, really kill me. When you are already in the 4 second area, ANYTHING is an improvement. Cars at 4 seconds are rare. That is fast. Same thing for 12 second 1/4 mile times. We should be happy with .2 second reductions (and I'm sure after the cars are broken in even better). Mechanically, it's pretty clear that the cars are superior...I wish that the body was as outrageous as the Gen I and Gen II.

 

[jwwiii]

Hello;

OK, I might have to re-take the Viper/ Mini post I made earlier. WHY, you ask? Well, here's what happened on Wednesday the 15th O' January.

My SRT arrived! I think the SRT is SOOOOO much more controlled than my previous 2 GenII Viper RT-10's. That being said, and with about 50 (only) miles at the wheel, that the new SRT could really run in tight quarters now.

Maybe the Mini would still have a big edge because of the size/weight info posted here before I wrote this, but the new SRT sure feels a whole lot more nimble now to me.

Jim

 

[Torquemonster]

not to mention the Viper has SOOOOOOO much more sex appeal, fun, and crowd drawing ability than a ...ahem.... mini (wisphered quietly).... I know the mini's are cute... but don't look for them on the SSCA circuits

...actually the mini is not outstanding at anything other than you can turn them at right angles at about 30mph into a side street without sliding... but then, so could a go-kart... but a mini will get more mpg than a Viper.... does that count?

I've seen international magazines (that are traditionally very ******* US cars) that freely admit that on a smooth surface, a good Viper and ZO6 have more grip than probably just about anything - including the more expensive exotic cars... that means even the new Lambo would have its work cut out trying to beat a Viper on a good road course - driver for driver where there were plenty of turns... maybe someone has tried that already?

Where the Euro supercars do have it is in brakes - if any of you guys have ever tried to out brake a Porsche Turbo or GT2 or GT3 (or even a Subaru WRX) in your Vipers, you'll know that Dodge really cocked up in that department.... to hell with macho... give me massive discs and 6 *** calipers and ABS any day.... the line that tough guys can brake as good without ABS is pretty lame at 150mph when some dork pulls out in front.... I can tell you first hand.... ABS is a good thing when all you want to do is stand on the middle pedal... HARD.

Hope the SRT gets better brakes??

 

[SnakeBitten]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guyver1:
Actually, in the Feb 02 issue of Motor Trend...

Corvette Z06
0-60: 4.07 seconds
0-100: 9.48 seconds
1/4 mile: 12.48 @ 114.9
600ft slalom: 70.3mph
60-0: 104 ft

On the day of the Viper test, the Z was considerably off.

Furthermore, the best numbers managed for a Viper by Motor Trend were in a 2000 ACR...

0-60: 4.1
1/4 mile: 12.2 @ 119mph
60-0: 121 ft
600ft slalom: 70.8 mph<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Guyver1 check out the High Speed shootouts from motortrend 98-00...You will see the best numbers for a GTS, 3 different ones all with better numbers than the ACR you quote for the slalom.....

98 MT article pulled 73.5 in the 600ft Slalom-MT record that still hasnt been beaten...

99 MT article pulled 72.6 in the 600ft Slalom-2nd best record MT ever recorded

00 MT 70.8

Everyone of those cars did 0-100 in 8.8 - 9.0 secs and 0-60 in 4.1 secs......It seems to me the Mags got faster times from the 96-98 GTS that they can with the later models.....Every mag I read now including MT are using the newer GTS nums even though the pre 00 tests they ran yielded much better results....Maybe the 00-now werent broken in as much as the 96-99..

 

[Guyver1]

Maybe, or maybe they got different test-drivers. (or changed their criteria).

If they did change the criteria, then we're still looking at a fast Z06, since it was tested under the same criteria as the newer GTS/ACR numbers.

Any way you cut it, the car is fast.

I think the cars have something like a .01 power/weight difference, and the Z06 has the more aggresive gearing, so its really on the wire betweem a Z and a GTS. The overwhelmingly flat Torque cuirve is where the Viper seems to make it up, but I have heard of Z's running in the 11's with intake and exhaust mods. The SRT is ahead of both tho, thats for certain. Plus,judging from the 26rwhp 26rwtq gain from a new intake we've been hearing about, the SRT is a heckuva lot more restricted than the Gen 2's ever were.