My GTS purchase is starting out as a nightmare... Chicago VCA, listen up!

[Achilles99]

I'm going to try and keep this post as neutral as possible, as details are still unfolding...

Some of you know that I have decided to leave the RT10 world and pick up a GTS. I'm looking to auto-x and track it a little, as well as use it as a daily driver. My RT was too pristine to use as a daily, IMHO. So, after a few weeks of searching, I found a 98 GTS that fit the bill.

It was located in Chicago, so I had Mike Robbins from Ringgold Dodge have his driver (Mark) go pick it up for me (Mark drives all over the country picking up and delivering Vipers in an enclosed trailer, so he knows what to look for ). Paul (the seller) dropped the car off at Finish Line Dodge in Chicago to have a Check Engine light looked at, as well as to have the car detailed. The GTS is still under a Maxcare warranty, and the check engine light had come on within the past few days. No problem, or so I thought.

Mark (driver) got to Finish Line Dodge around 7 pm, and inspected the car. What he found was a busted rear tail light with a two inch crack on the body next to the light (close to the license plate area). I found out later that the dealership had called Paul that morning to let him know there was a crack in the tail light. Paul had no idea... he recently took pictures of the car, and didn't notice it. He told the dealer to just go ahead and order a new light, and he'd cover it for me. When I called Paul to tell him what Mark saw, Paul was floored. The "crack" was a little more than a "crack." He called the dealership, who of course didn't take the blame. They said the damage was there when the car was dropped off.

So, who's fault is it? Since it was late at night and nothing more could be done, I had Mark get the salesmen at the dealership to sign a paper saying that Mark was picking up a car that had damage (at this point, it's unclear when damage occurred). Since the service manager wasn't in at the time, that's all that could be done.

At this point, I'm pretty antsy. Paul is helping me out 100%... he has reassured me that the damages will be repaired, and that I will not be the one paying for it. Hopefully, one of us will be able to talk with someone at Finish Line Dodge about this. The damage either happened sometime in Paul's possession (which seems unlikely), at the dealership, or at the detailing shop that the dealership uses.

Mike and Mark from Ringgold Dodge have been nothing but helpful, too. Mike is going to snap some shots of the damage, get an estimate written from a third party, and then we are going to present this to Finish Line Dodge. Does anyone from the Chicago VCA use Finish Line Dodge? I heard that they were very Viper friendly... I could use some help here in getting this worked out. Thanks!

 

[DodgeViper01]

Wow, that does seem like a nightmare. When you get those pictures post them so we know exactly what you are talking about. I wish you the best of luck!!

 

[ChoiceViper]

Yeah, that "crack" could end up costing thousands if body panels need to be replaced.

 

[Achilles99]

Hopefully, I can come back to you all and say that it was taken care of. I'll try and figure out how to post pics, too...

 

[PRVT JET]

I think I know who owned that car, my friend tom is the service adviser at finish line. He would never lie to you, and I mean it. I would have to say, I'm not surprised it has a crack in it.

 

[Tusc]

Thank God it was spotted early. I hope it all works out for you. And hey, at least your nightmare wasn't the car trying to kill you like my C5 when RR brake locked!

 

[Casey]

I hope it works out for you also! That's got to **** big time!
PRVT JET seems to have some insight, you two might want to talk.

 

[joe117]

As I see it, you have two choices.

Tell Paul, the seller, that you want to call off the deal. He didn't tell you the car was damaged. He should pay you back for the car hauler. If he's a good guy he will go for this.

Tell Paul that you will take the car but you want HIM to pay you for the repair when you get it done by a shop of your choice. Don't get involved in trying to collect from anyone else who may have done the damage.

Also,
If the car was supposed to be undamaged, your driver should have had instructions to not pick it up if it was. He saw the damage. Getting someone to sign for it simply covered his a$$. He should have called you or Paul.

 

[Achilles99]

Joe-The car is currently at Ringgold Dodge. Although I have technically paid for it, I had the seller sign a contract that is pretty clear outlining that the only known problem was a slipping clutch. I thought for sure that since it was covered under a Maxcare warranty, that I was protected. Paul seems to be OK with handling repairs, it that's what it comes down to. The driver DID have my permission to pick it up. After seeking a legal opinion, I thought it was best to have the dealership signoff on the condition of the car at pickup, which at the very least would protect me or the driver from being blamed for the car.

PRVT - We need to talk. Please PM when you get a chance...

 

[Tom86ZT]

I'm with PRVT JET on this one. We are both good friends of Tom at FLD. He is probably one of the most upstanding members of the viper community. He would never lie about something like that. He deals with A LOT of vipers and Viper owners. He has an excellent reputation and would do nothing to tarnish it.

"I think I know who owned that car....I'm not surprised it has a crack in it" ditto

tom

 

[Achilles99]

Tom/PRVT Jet - You guys seem to have first hand knowledge. Please PM me...

 

[Steve Ferguson]

I can tell you that there are only 2 dealerships in the Chicago land area that I would even think of telling a fellow VCA member to go to, and this place is not one of them. Good luck and let me know if you need any help?

 

[Matt M PA]

I hope it all works out for you, but I find it amazing that you did not look at this car in person beforehand.

I bought one car sight unseen and that was from Bill Pemberton who told me that if the car was not waht he said it was....I could refuse the car and his delvery folks would take it back.

I have travelled as far as Florida to look at a car. I know many times I was really annoyed that the car was not as described...but all I had lost was some travel money and time. One thing to remember is that my "excellent" and your "excellent" are two different things.

 

[HOLD TYTE]

I also have 100% confidence in Tom at Finish Line. He's been great with respect to my GTS.. and if the car was owned by the paul i'm thinking of, well, I'm with PRVTJET and Tom86ZT

 

[J DAWG]

Scotty (TOOFST) knows them well also. I vivisted the dealership last fall and met Tom as well as others there and IMO they really take their Vipers seriously. Hope all works out.

 

[Chuck 97 GTS]

I can tell you that there are only 2 dealerships in the Chicago land area that I would even think of telling a fellow VCA member to go to, and this place is not one of them. Good luck and let me know if you need any help?

I've only heard good things from all of my friends who have taken Vipers there for service. Tom at FLD is a stand-up guy. Steve, have you ever taken your car there? Have you heard something bad from someone who has?

 

[joe117]

So at this point, the seller says it didn't have any damage when he dropped it off at the dealer on his end.

It's hard to believe the seller would send it to a detail shop if it had a hit in the rear.

Sounds like someone at the first dealer or the detailer, backed it into something.

How much will the repair cost? Is it just a bump or is it enough to have bent the car?

I had a dealer back a high truck bed across the hood of my R/T while it was in their hands for some mechanical work. They had to fix it. It needed a paint job anyway.
If I had a brand new Viper and the same thing had happened, it would have been a very big deal. Repair and repaint on a new Viper? Jeez.

 

[Gerald]

What is the problem with dealers? THey sell cars but when something ****** happens they never take blame.. I'm so sick and tired of reading threads like this where the buyer isn't at fault. It's a no brainer why car dealers in general are so dishonest. Makes me sick to my stomach.

G

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Chuck, I do know of a single occasion for sure that caused a member to call me too find out where they could go to fix what had been done. It was a while ago, so for all I know there can be new owners and or new service and sales guys & gals?

At the end of the day if I am going to suggest something I will only do so if I have a first hand working relationship with a dealer. I am SURE htere are plenty of GREAT dealerships I have NEVER experienced. But the only thing I need to make sure of is that a member gets the service they expect, and since I know for sure there are a few that provide those services that is where I send those who ask me.

It is actually good to hear that there may be another option. But since I do not know them it will not be one I offer up. Please also keep in mind that my days of handling those calls was some time ago (3-5 years to be exact), so I am sure there are many new places that can fill the need.

 

[ZX1100]

I also have 100% confidence in Tom at Finish Line. He's been great with respect to my GTS.. and if the car was owned by the paul i'm thinking of, well, I'm with PRVTJET and Tom86ZT

I agree that Tom, from Finish Line Dodge, is a very stand up guy and takes great care of the many Chicago area Vipers. He has mainly taken care of all my friends Vipers including mine without any problems.

If this happens to be the Paul everyone is referring to then I would agree with the rest of the guys also.

 

[joe117]

Gerald,
One of the dealer's lot morons probably did the deed and didn't tell anyone.
Even if the dealer was a stand up guy, he would have no way of knowing if the car was hit before or after it came in.

I'm not standing up for the dealer. I'm just looking at it from his point of view.

In this day of digital cameras, it would seem to be a good idea to take some pictures, on their lot. Tell the service manager, "hey come verify that my car has no dings". Take some of the pictures with him in them.

Too bad its come to this.

 

[DrumrBoy]

Many have already registered this opinion, but I'll reinforce the message that Tom at FLD is the best. My GTS is there now... FLD has straightened out issues that have stumped others and he's always been a straight shooter.

 

[JGK95]

Who tha Heck is this PAUL??

Jay "I don't know him" K.

LOLOLOLOL!!

 

[VPRVENM97]

Achilles,

Sorry to hear about your nightmare purchase. Sounds like Tom at FLD has a great reputation and quite a bit of support from the IL boys. On the other hand there's a little bit of skepticism regarding the seller. Either way, I'm no position to render an opinion or direct blame.

One thing that does come to mind is, as a competant Service Writer, wouldn't Tom have completed a thorough inspection of the car at the time of write up? If he had, wouldn't he have seen and documented damage as significant as a cracked tail light lense and body panel? Maybe like others have said, it was done by some lot boy or a customer backed into it. Regardless, the damage is there, the seller's insurance should pick up the tab.

Good luck in resolving it. Post pictures of the damage and keep us up to date on the outcome.

 

[Achilles99]

Thanks for the input everyone... especially those of you who took the time to PM and call me over the telephone. It looks like I'll have some resolution soon. Just wanted to post a few follow-up comments:

I talked to Tom over at FLD. GREAT guy. Was very upfront with me. The car was delivered to the dealership on a tow truck. The tow truck was hired by Dodge's extended warranty service line. They dropped off the car at Tom's lot outside. It was dropped off at the back of the lot, with another car as well as a fence behind it. So, it seems unlikely that someone backed into it at that point. Paul does have pictures to prove that the rear damage didn't previously exist (he had taken the pictures and emailed them to me). Tom dug into the issue some more, and realized that the towing company DID NOT have anyone at the dealership sign for it, and just dropped it off. He admits that he didn't see the crack until further inspection of the light... which is understandable. The crack is minor, IMHO. So, at this point, it looks like the towing company is at fault (at least legally). From the pictures, it looks like a truck's towing hitch backed into the car just above the bumper, and took out the light and cracked the rear panel. I'm getting an estimate on the damages today or Monday, and faxing the paperwork to the towing company to get it covered under their insurance.

As for Paul, he seems to be getting a lot of negative press here. I'm not sure what happened before, but I'll just share my own personal experience here. Paul has three Vipers, one of which was run with lots of nitrous. That was also a red GTS (which has since been repainted yellow/black). NOT the one I bought. I verified with Tom at the dealership... he does not think the car I bought was run with nitrous. In fact, he said the car was mechanically in great shape as far as he could tell. It has a Maxcare warranty, so I'm not worried about it.

Paul has been upfront with me the whole time... even BEFORE I posted this thread, he said that he would be taking care of any damages regardless if it was his fault or not. He even put it in writing. He even offered to refund my money. So, as far as I'm concerned, he's OK in my book. I knew he drove his cars hard, and I plan to do the same with this one, so as long as it's mechanically sound and 95% physically sound, I think for the price I paid it was a fair deal (no, I won't disclose any amounts publicly ).

I had my own dealership look at the car (albeit briefly... Mike is getting ready for V10 Nats ). He said the car sounds good, looks good, doesn't smoke, and appears to have no damage except for scratches on the front fascia and the broken light/rear. He'll be looking at it more closely when he gets back. But, for now, things look positive.

I want to thank everyone who took the time to email, PM, and talk to me over the phone. It made an otherwise stressful situation a lot more manageable. I've got no idea how to post pics, so if someone would like I can email them to you to post. Thanks!

 

[PRVT JET]

Good luck, just look around at the other cars. YOU got a good deal.

 

[Achilles99]

Thanks Jet... I thought so, too. Can't wait to get it, especially after this particularly stressful past two days. Nice talking with you on the phone...

 

[ViperRay]

Achilles,
You might want to mention who the towing company is. I sure wouldn't want to use them if they're going to damage cars and keep it quiet. No way they wouldn't know they damaged the car. Not my business but might pay off for someone else here some day.

 

[sean4180]

I'm sorry to see everyone bashing my friend and fellow viper owner. You guys should be SUPPORTING Paul. I cannot believe how negative you guys are about him. Does he drive his cars hard? Yes he does. Is it overly abusive? NO it’s a VIPER. We all drive differently and have our own ideas on what is abuse and what isn’t. Chuck97 would probably have a grabber if I sat in his car, but I wouldn’t call it abuse. In fact some would say that running a ton of nitrous through an engine would be abuse. Would any of you guys slam TOOFAST's car if he was selling it? Obviously the question is rhetorical I already know the answer. I can tell you this, I know the history of the car and I would not hesitate to buy it. Paul and I took the photos together and there was no damage aside from the scrapes that we took pictures of. With me guiding him he backed the car into the garage, and we both left. Paul was 100% upfront and honest with Achilles. As for the damage Paul didn't do it, Tom didn't do it, THE TOWING COMPANY DID IT. To the people slamming paul. Why are you slamming one of your own?

 

[PRVT JET]

Like I said, Paul knew the condition of his car. Thats why he was asking a reasonable price. I have seen salvage titled GTS go for more. Achilles, I'm glad to help and I hope you enjoy your car.