Need some inpout re: plug readings and intake/oil issues

[FRC Z51]

Let me preface this by giving you a little back round on the engine/use. The engine only has a few thousand miles and I have gone over all the external mechanical aspects from top to bottom this season. It's a Gen2 engine with T&D 1.7's, a little exhaust work, and an air box. I was accidentally sent a 160 thermostat and ran it for a while. Unfortunately it did indeed run at 160ish at highway speeds and I have put ~1000 miles on it that way. Around town, it runs at 200ish. Upon changing the thermostat today to a 180, I noticed a decent amount of oil in the intake manifold. The car has the following set-up:

-K&N breather filter on each valve cover
-Stock PCV routing

Attached are a couple pictures of the plugs (the ones that look the worst) and also an intake manifold shot to show the oil. The plugs were brand new a 1000 miles ago. Granted the car did have a short start-up prior to pulling them so I'm sure that doesn't help in term of a true plug reading. I know there are many well versed viper guys on here so I'm hoping I can get a little feed back. Thanks!

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[AAKVIPER]

One query..........

have you changed your head gaskets during the modifications made to your Viper? Looks from the scan that the spark plug is water wet as well. Did you smell coolant on the plug?

Arthur

 

[99 R/T 10]

Not uncommon to see oil in the intake with the stock breather system, get a catch can to eliminate the problem.


As for the spark plugs, not sure what is going on, but it looks like you could have some water getting in.

 

[AAKVIPER]

That is what I noticed..with the wet plug..

If that is the case of coolant entering the head as well, that is why I brought up the head gasket issue.
If one can look down the white porcelain area of the plug, sometimes you can find rust left by coolant residue.

The tip of the plug is a brown color, So at one point the motor was running correctly.

Arthur

 

[FRC Z51]

Re: One query..........

have you changed your head gaskets during the modifications made to your Viper? Looks from the scan that the spark plug is water wet as well. Did you smell coolant on the plug?

Arthur

Head gaskets were done when the engine was freshened up. No coolant smell on the plug but I suppose it could have been masked by the fuel smell due to the short start-up prior to removal. I feel its probably unlikely that there is a head gasket issue simply because there are no other "tell tale" signs and they don't have many miles on them.

 

[FRC Z51]

Not uncommon to see oil in the intake with the stock breather system, get a catch can to eliminate the problem.

From my searching on the forum, that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to. Do you think it is still an issue even though I do have breathers on each valve cover? I realize that only helps on the top end, but is a catch can still necessary? Also, should I just cap off the PCV (tubes and intake)?

 

[AAKVIPER]

one other question...

Have you been checking the amount of oil being consumed via dipstick? For a spark plug to get oil grimy as in your case their must be a fair amount of leakage of oil entering the combustion area. Did you notice any black/blue smoke at idle or while driving?

Arthur

 

[FRC Z51]

Re: one other question...

Have you been checking the amount of oil being consumed via dipstick? For a spark plug to get oil grimy as in your case their must be a fair amount of leakage of oil entering the combustion area.

Arthur

Oil consumption has been a little higher than I would expect it to be. Roughly a quart in the past 1000 miles, but that is with a slight pan leak also.

 

[AAKVIPER]

With the stock intake and breather system...

and very small amount of mods done..I am not certain why PCV with tubes and intake are the problem now? Essentially you added just a little cam profile with your 1.7's rockers, better breathing via little exhaust work, an air box, and thermostat.
Not sure if that would constitute re-piping of other components. As the principal stock components are intact and you had no issues with the set up before. Right?

If you had a supercharger, different aftermarket heads, higher compression and significantly radical cam, then I can see a vacuum situation and oil consumption occurring in the system. Without question and beyond doubt you have a problem and oil is certainly where it should not be, but in my opinion a closer look at the engine work should be considered. Who did the internal mechanicals such as head gaskets, lower and upper intake? Is all the pluming in the correct area? And so on..

Arthur

 

[Camfab]

I think a bunch of things are probably going on. I really doubt you have a coolant issue. Your probably reving the snot out of the car since you changed the rockers. Holding the lower gears and downshifting and keeping revs high will **** in a bunch of oil into the intake. You might also have a valve guide issue going on at the same time. When you changed the rockers did you check the pushrod geometry and length?

What's up with the crazy caps AAKVIPER, it's actually hard to read.

 

[DrumrBoy]

If the guides are bad, I think you'd notice puffs of blue upon startup and sometimes when shifting. Do you see that?

 

[AAKVIPER]

Not caps ..they are lower case letters..just made the font size bigger..

so it can make the post easier to read. I think the standard font size is too small in IMO. So I went to the font size of three instead of 2.

Arthur

 

[Camfab]

Do a compression test, better yet a leak down test and you'll have your answer.

 

[ViperTony]

What camfab said. Even when my Viper was stock, I found some oil in the intake runners and compression/leakdown tests were stellar. After my mods, and a stellar compression/leadown test, I got oil in the intake. Even with a catch can/breather and the CCV capped off, I caught about 6oz of oil after 2 track days at NJMP but my plugs never looked like yours. Some oil will make it's way into the intake via the CCV orifice that tees into your intake. With 1.7 RR's, I've been told, that it contributes to more oil in the galley leading to a little bit more oil in the intake. This from JackB whom I consider a very knowlegeable guy.I think your issue is something else. I seriously doubt that the oil-fouled plug you posted is from oil in the intake. Something else is going on. Maybe excessive blow-by, valve-guide seals issues, etc. Do a compression/leakdown test (warm not Hot engine). That will help narrow down the issue. Also, does your oil look milky in color? With a coolant leak I've seen oil become milky in color. Last question: Have you dyno'd your Viper and, if so, what does the AFR look like?

 

[jdeft1]

Burning oil and/or running cold (hard to consider with this engine..) +1 to Camfab

 

[FRC Z51]

If the guides are bad, I think you'd notice puffs of blue upon startup and sometimes when shifting. Do you see that?

That's whats strange. I have a Gen2 with side exhaust, no cats, and I never see or smell oil being burnt.

Do a compression test, better yet a leak down test and you'll have your answer.

That's the plan...

What camfab said. Even when my Viper was stock, I found some oil in the intake runners and compression/leakdown tests were stellar. After my mods, and a stellar compression/leadown test, I got oil in the intake. Even with a catch can/breather and the CCV capped off, I caught about 6oz of oil after 2 track days at NJMP but my plugs never looked like yours. Some oil will make it's way into the intake via the CCV orifice that tees into your intake. With 1.7 RR's, I've been told, that it contributes to more oil in the galley leading to a little bit more oil in the intake. This from JackB whom I consider a very knowlegeable guy.I think your issue is something else. I seriously doubt that the oil-fouled plug you posted is from oil in the intake. Something else is going on. Maybe excessive blow-by, valve-guide seals issues, etc. Do a compression/leakdown test (warm not Hot engine). That will help narrow down the issue. Also, does your oil look milky in color? With a coolant leak I've seen oil become milky in color. Last question: Have you dyno'd your Viper and, if so, what does the AFR look like?

Thanks for the feedback. My oil looks fine, just a little blacker than ideal given the amount of miles on it, though I do realize there are many factors that can change the "appearance" of the oil. I have not put the car on the dyno yet. I'll have it on the dyno sometime this week hopefully, after getting it back together and a few test miles on it. I'll get a base line and also do some tweaking with the SCT.

 

[Fatboy 18]

I think a bunch of things are probably going on. Your probably revving the snot out of the car. Holding the lower gears and downshifting and keeping revs high will **** in a bunch of oil into the intake. You might also have a valve guide issue going on at the same time?

That's Exactly how I drive mine (with a catless full Belanger system) And Yes I get through a lot of oil Ive bought some new Valve guide oil seals and a catch can which I will be putting on the car in the next few weeks If I floor the car then back off the throttle I do see a bit of Blue smoke now and again from the rear mirror


FRC Z51 Have you done a compression test on the car since the rebuild work? If you do have any head gasket issues that should show up

 

[Jack B]

Re: With the stock intake and breather system...

and very small amount of mods done..I am not certain why PCV with tubes and intake are the problem now? Essentially you added just a little cam profile with your 1.7's rockers, better breathing via little exhaust work, an air box, and thermostat.
Not sure if that would constitute re-piping of other components. As the principal stock components are intact and you had no issues with the set up before. Right?

If you had a supercharger, different aftermarket heads, higher compression and significantly radical cam, then I can see a vacuum situation and oil consumption occurring in the system. Without question and beyond doubt you have a problem and oil is certainly where it should not be, but in my opinion a closer look at the engine work should be considered. Who did the internal mechanicals such as head gaskets, lower and upper intake? Is all the pluming in the correct area? And so on..

Arthur

TheT &D rockers will increase oil flow to the heads. On the other hand, those plugs have other issues.

 

[NI-KA]

Interesting since it validates the experiance I have had with my car.

A little history. My car consumes oil. It has since I owned it. (Purchased it with 1.7 T&Ds polished ported and a "bigger" CAM and catch can). Since owning; I have had to "refresh" the heads. When the heads were being worked on it was noticed that there were no guide oil seals.

Guide oil seals were added along with fixing the T&D geometry which was all messed up. (There was other stuff not important here)

I have never found any oil in the catch can. Oil is consumed I have never seen the plugs fouled up like in the pictures above.

The main thing that this thread tells me is that I should expect oil consumption. It appears to be "normal".

When compression was checked it was 170 across all cylinders. One of these days I will get around to a leak down test.

 

[bluesrt]

that looks definatly like oil on that plug, a quart every 1 k miles is not good, you are burning oil somewhere, if you have a overfueled car, it can wash the rings loose and start sipping oil, looks like oil deposits on that plug