Nitrous Newbie Questions......

[ChicagoGTS]

1.) Is propane used as a suppliment for fuel, or is there more fuel added as well.

2.) Can a N2o/propane setup be tied into a Vec2.

3.) I understand how the HP/TQ curve works in regards to stock Heads; But how far can the stock heads be pushed, is there any negative effect internally at say 800RWHP. The above is assuming you have Full exhaust & T&D's.

~Matt~

 

[PRVT JET]

Just because your getting drag radials, doesn't mean you have to get more power. Do you have your car? we are getting ready to go to byron gragaway.

isaac

 

[Jack B]

"1.) Is propane used as a suppliment for fuel, or is there more fuel added as well.

2.) Can a N2o/propane setup be tied into a Vec2.

3.) I understand how the HP/TQ curve works in regards to stock Heads; But how far can the stock heads be pushed, is there any negative effect internally at say 800RWHP. The above is assuming you have Full exhaust & T&D's.

~Matt~ "

1. In a single stage propane system it is the fuel enrichment.
2. At this time no.
3. You will have difficulty in exceeding 600 hp-650 hpwith a single stage set up on a stock car. You probably can do 700 hp on a fairly stock car with a dual stage system.

 

[ChicagoGTS]

LOL, Just lookin' for a small shot to put me ahead of you . I'm leaving in a few minutes to go pick it up from Fields. Good luck at the track, 10's will be yours.

 

[ChicagoGTS]

"1.) Is propane used as a suppliment for fuel, or is there more fuel added as well.

2.) Can a N2o/propane setup be tied into a Vec2.

3.) I understand how the HP/TQ curve works in regards to stock Heads; But how far can the stock heads be pushed, is there any negative effect internally at say 800RWHP. The above is assuming you have Full exhaust & T&D's.

~Matt~ "

1. In a single stage propane system it is the fuel enrichment.
2. At this time no.
3. You will have difficulty in exceeding 600 hp-650 hpwith a single stage set up on a stock car. You probably can do 700 hp on a fairly stock car with a dual stage system.

Jack I'm sorry, I thought my sig would help. I'm already at 615RWHP, I guess what I'm really asking is would I need to upgrade my fuel system for N2o/Propane or would the propane suppliment for the extra fuel needed without it. I'm looking to add around a 100 shot. I'll talk to Sean about the Vec2 I thought I remember him saying that you could, I'm pretty sure Mbnviper is running N2o with the VEC2 and blower setup, I could be wrong.

~Matt~

 

[PBJ]

Matt,
Yes, you can use the vec 2 to engage your nitrous. I have only used a dry set up with my customers blowers instead of a wet kit or propane. You can make a nitrous card to supply the additional fuel while you are on the bottle and use your blower card the rest of the time. The first set up I did made 618 and 633 before the spray and 705 and 920 after with a dry 40 shot. I have since bumped the n20 to a 55 shot and we picked up 2 tenths and a couple of mph. A 100 shot is quite aggressive, you will have to watch your timing curve for sure. I would think you would make some serious torque if you set it up right. I think you will max out the stock fuel pump even with a boost a pump added with the level of power you are wanting....I would upgrade your fuel system if you want everything to take that kind of abuse for a long time. This is just my opinion, definitely get all of the input you can and see what everyone else is doing.
Later,
Joe

 

[Jack B]

BTR's kit with the gas/propane is the one he is doing 750 hp with. This is a two stage kit. Yes you can use the VEC to bring in a single stage, however, there is no way have the VEC being in the second stage.

PBJ has a good point, the dry system is a better way to go, however, stock injectors won't support that hp level. You would have to change the injectors. I have the VEC bring in the first stage dry and I bring in the second stage wet with an actuator in the shift grip.

The nice thing about nitrous, it doesn't care alot about the intake side of the process, the exhaust side is the one that has to be modified to get the most benefit from the nitrous. For some reason the torque is low relative to the hp on your car. Does the torque curve drop or stay flat after 4000.

 

[ChicagoGTS]

PBJ, Does the Nitrous + blower factor intensify the shot? those numbers on the 40 shot were around what I was looking for but I didn't know they could be achieved with such a small shot, but that's even better (more shots per bottle).

Jack B, those numbers are from april. I have tuned the car quite a bit since then. It feels like I've picked up alot of TQ in the midrange since I've started tuning. The TQ curve did drop a bit. I have enough power on the low end, I would like to kick in when the TQ starts falling in 3rd and all of 4th.

 

[PBJ]

Matt,
Yes the blower and nitrous work hand and hand. The nitrous lowers the intake air charge which makes the blower more efficient. The cooler the incoming air the more power you will make. Once the air is cooled down you can get more aggressive with your tune, but you have to be very careful of detonation. As Jack said a set of 50 pound injectors are a must. Make sure your air fuel is dead on...heat plays a major role in a twin screw blower and your readings will vary as the temperature changes. There are a lot of positive points to nitrous, but there are some bad also. With a blower your cylinder pressure is already increased, with the nitrous it goes through the roof... the more you spray the higher it gets. I have run into issues on mustangs and f-bodies in the past by spraying to much... I have not found that point on a viper yet. Alot of guys use water/methanol instead which serves the same purpose with lower cylinder pressures. I think you will make more torque on the bottle than you will ever see by using water. Good luck
Later,
Joe

 

[ChicagoGTS]

I am already running the 50lb injectors with the pump booster. What A/F is safe for N2O I'm running at 12:1 on 60 degree day and about 11.5 on a 90 degree day. When you used the Vec2 with the 40 shot how much control did you have? I haven't played with that part of the software yet. I noticed there is a tab for outputs are the PWM tables the ones you use?

 

[1TONY1]

I have my own custom version of single stage regulated propane and nitrous. Mainly because I felt like my stock fuel system was maxed out and the propane is high octane. I did not want to do a dry shot and if I ever do a fuel system I will stay with the propane. 85 hp worth of NOS jets was worth 100 rwhp and around 180 rwtq. Bone stock engine (7 psi)except Arrow rockers. You can use the vec2 to activate the system but what if you start spinning ?? I like having nitrous under my thumb, that way if I start spinning I can stay full throttle, get off the no2 and get the spinning under control then back on the no2. Good for a 10.46 on Michelins at Bradenton.

 

[PBJ]

Matt,
I cycle the n20 from 3000-5800 rpm and only over 5.5 psi of boost with the vec 2. Then I use the vec 2 lead with a wot switch to complete the ground circuit for the n20 solenoid. That way you have all of your attention on driving instead of holding a nitrous switch...if you lift on the throttle the n20 turns off until you go back to wot. It works perfect unless you get in and out of the throttle numerous times on a wide open pass which could cause a backfire...if you have to lift that many times, give up the pass because you were out of control anyway. Tony's way with the propane is a good idea for the octane rating of the propane...I always run 100 in my car and 104 at the track so the propane was never an issue. I like the simplicity of a dry kit , but both ways have their advantages.
Later,
Joe

 

[ChicagoGTS]

I can see the advantages to both setups, I like the WOT idea but I don't want it in 1st or 2nd gear. I don't know if that's possible with the Vec2. I also like the thumb style but the foot/thumb coordination part scares me a little. Tony you answered my question above about wether or not propane was a fuel supplement (nice for us since we're already pushing the limits of our fuel system), I was a bit unclear on that. I wonder if anyone is using the maximizer along with the Vec2. I'll have to call Sean and see if he's going to add the gear-change/progressive function like the maximizer has. Joe, how well does 1st and 2nd gear handle with that setup, I'm assuming with the Vec2 that the nitrous is activated in every gear since it's only triggered by RPM. Joe, have you ever sprayed with an 8lb pulley? Tony, Is there any certain RPM range that is safest to engage the nitrous or is it safe anytime?

 

[1TONY1]

Normally you wouldn't need it under around 2500 rpm.

 

[PBJ]

Matt,
8 pounds is no problem to spray on right out of the hole in every gear. Make sure you have a good tire or you are wasting your time. Your bottle pressure will make all the difference in the world. At 900 or less you won't feel much of a change, but at 1150-1200 it will leave like a rocket. If you don't purge your system before the hit it will leave a lot softer also. A time delay device is cool, but I would imagine that it would take some time to set to engage at the right times. I think you will be fine with out a maximizer...that is just my opinion. If you are that worried about it spray a 25 dry off of a wot/vec2 and a wet 50 off a button in forth gear. That would calm your initial hit down and give you an additional second stage that would give you a major top end charge. It would be a bunch going on , but it would work fine... just an idea.
Later,
Joe

 

[ChicagoGTS]

Joe, did any of the blown cars you've put nitrous on have stock heads. If so what did the HP/TQ graphs look like and what A/F do you shoot for. Also, How come your 45 dry shot put out as much as Tony's 85 wet shot. Is there a power difference between wet wnd dry.

~Matt~

 

[PBJ]

Matt,
All of my viper set ups have been on stock heads so far. I will get some dyno graphs together and e-mail them to you later. The only thing I can say on the wet/dry difference is that I may have been a bit more aggressive on the timing curve...usually the propane set ups make more power on a nitrous only car in my experience. A dyno is one thing and the track is another, I think Tony's car has gone 9.80s down south, but mine have only gone 10.10s in the mid states (Topeka 2000 foot elevation). I haven't got any of my cars in the nines yet....close, but not yet. I try to keep my air/fuel between 11.8 and 12.0, anything over that is too lean in my book. I am getting ready to do a 10 pound kit on the bottle on my car, I have two different sets of heads to try and two different cams to try...I will let you know how it turns out. I would like to see 750/1000 at the wheels , but that may be wishful thinking.
Later
Joe

 

[ChicagoGTS]

What kit would you recommend?

 

[PBJ]

Dry NOS
Wet Nitrous Express
Propane BTR / NOS

There is a company here on the board called racetested , but I have never used them...Rich ( V10MOJO ) has, you may want to ask him his opinion. I have had the best luck with Nitrous Express.
Joe

 

[ChicagoGTS]

When you use NX do you use a seperate fuel cell or do you tap the stock system? Is it possible to use propane with an NX setup?

~Matt~

 

[VIPER D]

The btr kit that made me over 900 ft lbs of tq is a nx/propane srt up.

http://www.visionsofspeed.net/custpics/04viper/dnosbig.jpg

nos d..

 

[1TONY1]

I have my own custom version of single stage regulated propane and nitrous. Mainly because I felt like my stock fuel system was maxed out and the propane is high octane. I did not want to do a dry shot and if I ever do a fuel system I will stay with the propane. 85 hp worth of NOS jets was worth 100 rwhp and around 180 rwtq. Bone stock engine (7 psi)except Arrow rockers. You can use the vec2 to activate the system but what if you start spinning ?? I like having nitrous under my thumb, that way if I start spinning I can stay full throttle, get off the no2 and get the spinning under control then back on the no2. Good for a 10.46 on Michelins at Bradenton.

WRONG, 10.665 @ 138 was my Michelin time. I am a stickler for correct et's out to the tenths. Just to many figures with to many different tires in my old brain.
Believe it or not, I woke up wondering about if the et I posted hee was correct. lol