OS Giken Differential in Viper

dave6666

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Dave. You have a Gen II. I have a Gen III with a modified Gen IV tranny. After reviewing the pros and cons of replacing the stock Gen IV diff with a Quaife or a Giken ( with special attention given to my car's power levels) it was determined by a number of individuals from separate enterprises, including some with very high automotive mechanical skill sets, that the Giken would be best for my vehicle and the way it is utilized. None of those individuals had/has a dealer or distribution relationship with Giken. Their well thought out and reasoned opinion made sense to me. With that said, I think that if I was running a bit less power that I would have selected the Quaife.

Good call, and no argument. And thanks again for leading directly back in to my ugly section.

Your application, substantiated with what sounds like a reasonable amount of homework, is where I'm thinking is the best application for the Giken. You are right that I do not have the HP of a Gen 3 or 4, nor is the primary use of my vehicle closed course. The vendor and builder had every chance to steer me away from the Giken, and they even sold the Q too.

I hate advice centered on the sale, coupled with what is clearly a lie from the manufacturer.
 

Bobpantax

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There ya go. I drive it mostly on the street. When I do use it on a road course or in a standing mile event, I need to be able to rely on the car without worrying about a diff failure caused snake bite.

A week a go Saturday, as I was accelerating hard out of a turn on the front straight past the grand stands at Homestead, the ass end kicked to the left - something that has never happened before. I backed off quickly for a fraction of a second and corrected but I had a brief vision of the possibility of a spin and a wreck - not a good feeling. I thought it was just that the tires were too heat cycled so I drove it far less aggressively for two more laps and brought it back in. We checked it later( also found metal particles in the diff fluid) and found the problem with the differential.
 

dave6666

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...the ass end kicked to the left...

That's what the non existent break-in is like.

It was marketed to me as the diff of choice for drifters. Great. Good for them. When you are already operating past the point of tire adhesion then the little OSG surprises are likely to not be a thing. But driving home from the grocery I stay away from "drifting" while waving at the garage sales. The car jerking? This... non break-in part?

Tell me about it first and I wouldn't be writing this.

DISCUSS YOUR APPLICATION WITH YOUR VENDOR THOROUGHLY

I did, and the result is the ugly I'm writing here. Should I do the good and the bad now LOL?
 

Cop Magnet

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That's what the non existent break-in is like.

It was marketed to me as the diff of choice for drifters. Great. Good for them. When you are already operating past the point of tire adhesion then the little OSG surprises are likely to not be a thing. But driving home from the grocery I stay away from "drifting" while waving at the garage sales. The car jerking? This... non break-in part?

Tell me about it first and I wouldn't be writing this.

DISCUSS YOUR APPLICATION WITH YOUR VENDOR THOROUGHLY

I did, and the result is the ugly I'm writing here. Should I do the good and the bad now LOL?

With all due respect, why don't you just say what it is you need to say without trying to be so cute about it? If you have feedback, good or bad, post it up. So break in is not required, but apparently may be desirable? That's the big lie you are talking about? As far as the good and bad, spell it out already. People are looking at this post for feedback, not to hear you grandstand.
 

dave6666

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With all due respect, why don't you just say what it is you need to say without trying to be so cute about it? If you have feedback, good or bad, post it up. So break in is not required, but apparently may be desirable? That's the big lie you are talking about? As far as the good and bad, spell it out already. People are looking at this post for feedback, not to hear you grandstand.

I could care less what you think and will say what I want to say as I want to say it. You think you know the history of everything whereas you know squat. If you don't want me to continue to thrash you like a school girl you'll respect what you clearly do not have any idea of.

And if you can't figure out in plain sight that a company that sells a product that requires a break-in wheras they clearly state it does not, you should not even walk across the street with a seeing eye dog.

Respect my ass. You don't have any idea what respect is.
 

Bobpantax

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Interesting. Your experience seems to be different from that of others who have this unit and who have tracked their car and reported about it. ( But their comments involved use at a road course and/or autocross.) From what I have read and listened to the Giken may require a bit more driving skill than the quaife but is a better diff for racing. I do not think that it was the right piece for your car with your intended use. It seems like you may have been sold something that you never needed. But is that Giken's fault, the person who sold you the unit's fault and/or your fault? In view of your incredible mods and thoroughness in doing them, I would be interested in knowing exactly who said what to you. It must have been pretty detailed to mislead someone like you.

I also would like to read about the "good". Thanks in advance for posting the "good".

That's what the non existent break-in is like.

It was marketed to me as the diff of choice for drifters. Great. Good for them. When you are already operating past the point of tire adhesion then the little OSG surprises are likely to not be a thing. But driving home from the grocery I stay away from "drifting" while waving at the garage sales. The car jerking? This... non break-in part?

Tell me about it first and I wouldn't be writing this.

DISCUSS YOUR APPLICATION WITH YOUR VENDOR THOROUGHLY

I did, and the result is the ugly I'm writing here. Should I do the good and the bad now LOL?
 

dave6666

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Unfortunately Bob, and contrary to those that have posted prior to you, the details of the conversations that led up to my purchase shall remain private. It could otherwise be viewed as bashing a vendor. I do not on the other hand have any reservations about pointing out the disparity with the manufacturer, the lie as I call it. Complete different matter. Complete different history.

Those that have been paying attention will note that twice I have simply said to ensure your application is correct. Others have given a song and dance reply calling me cute. I think you nailed it on the head Bob.

I gave every opportunity to have recommended to me the correct upgrade that I wanted to purchase. And yes, with 3.73 gears I felt a better posi would be a good upgrade from simply the go straight standpoint. Nothing to do with HP. Back to the recommendation, I was told I wanted the OSG. By others. Case closed.

I'll get back to the good and the bad. I'm almost tired of posting.

Almost... :rolleyes:
 

David Pintaric

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After reading this thread, I still don't the seat-of-the-pants differences between the Quaife and Giken diffs. I am buying a near one for 2011 and have been told that the Giken is "the way to go." But the "break-in" issue is a concern. We don't get many break-in opportunities with our use of the car (if we drive 1000 miles a year that's a bunch).

Now the Giken requiring a driver with my skill comment concerns me as well. What does that mean? Does the car feel less "settled" with the Giken vs a Quaife?
 

Bobpantax

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Hi Dave. Go to this thread for the answer to your question:OS Giken Questions - Viper Club of America Discussion Forums

I think that there should probably be a sub category forum just on differentials and all the threads on same consolidated there if that is possible.


After reading this thread, I still don't the seat-of-the-pants differences between the Quaife and Giken diffs. I am buying a near one for 2011 and have been told that the Giken is "the way to go." But the "break-in" issue is a concern. We don't get many break-in opportunities with our use of the car (if we drive 1000 miles a year that's a bunch).

Now the Giken requiring a driver with my skill comment concerns me as well. What does that mean? Does the car feel less "settled" with the Giken vs a Quaife?
 

Cop Magnet

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I put one in my GTS earlier this year along with some gears. You want the good, the bad, or the ugly?

You want the good 3 times? The bad 3 times? The ugly 3 times? Total of 9 times?

Should I do the good and the bad now LOL?

I'll get back to the good and the bad.

Here's an idea. How about posting the good and the bad?
Respect my ass?
Respect is saying what you mean and not beating around the bush. Or making people ask you repeatedly, as if your opinion is so all-valuable that they somehow owe you a special request. You brought this up, why not just follow through?
 

dave6666

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On to the good and the bad.

For the record, my '01 just dyno'd at 450, I run 20" PS2's on the rear, and 3.73 gears.

As mentioned previously, this upgrade was not centered around concerns of hp destroying the factory posi, but to assist with keeping the car going straight sans 3.73 gears. I think every stop sign was a slide job when I took off with my 3.07's and the factory Dana posi.

Lastly was the use I stated of the vehicle when being advised of which posi to install. Primary use is on the street, secondary use is closed course. My emphasis has always been that driveability on the street comes first on a street car. The main 2 units under consideration were the OSG and the Q, although there are even further options. I have close to 2K miles on it now. All of that street use.

The good.

I'm not sure if this is good, but I hate to call it bad or ugly. So to start with, the OSG doesn't fix stupid. Yes, street driving and the typical sharp right turn is a perfect opportunity to have a little fun. In short, the OSG won't save you if you don't know what you are doing. I think the factory posi was a little better entering into a sharp right, but the OSG controls the exit better. There always seems to be a little gravel here and there on city streets, and the OSG controls wheel spin there better than the Dana. Once again, still talking about the proverbial sharp right corner. So the moral of the OSG versus the right turn exhibitionist is stupid still wins, but I feel more confident with the OSG than I did with the Dana. I am guessing that most Viper owners view right hand corners as a gift from the engineers that designed the city. :D

Another area I've noticed an improvement over the Dana is straight line starting from say a stop sign or stop light. Even being careful, with my 3.07's and the Dana the car would fishtail. No my PS2's are not 50 years old. Maybe we need better pavement in my town but I got what I got. The OSG noticeably reduces the wheel spin component and the fishtailing follows. Way less likely to get noticed by PD now when just trying to drive normally.

Moving up the food chain is hard straight line acceleration. The corner has been turned, the car is already rolling. I love pulling out into traffic making that turn carefully, but with minimal room given the traffic load, and then freaking everyone out that a car doing 50 when I was turning never really gets ahead of me. Turn and then nail it. WOT banging gears. I don't do any pedaling and the car stays dead nuts straight. Try that with your factory diff and street tires. :rolleyes: I used to have some favorite spots where at 80 mph in 3rd I could slip the rears, but that has been repaved and my measly hp is no longer entertaining. I would assume however that the same dead nuts straight would now apply. Dana versus OSG respectively.

I know that closed course use has a completely different atmosphere. No cops LOL. And subsequently all the things that I can't do on the street you strive to do on the track. Turns are also way different. Greater radius and/or longer sweeping and so on. I have been playing with being more aggressive on longer radius left hand turns, once again city driving, and the power down comes quick and I like the control so far.

Finally, like many owners that have a car that is primarily for street use, I avoid wet weather driving. During my 500 mile gear break-in period - no aggressive driving - I got caught at the Quickie Mart in a downpour. The Weather Channel was wrong LOL. Anyway, one of the stop signs on the way back home that on dry pavement I do the fishtailing, I decided to momentarily forget I was breaking in my gears. I expected to end up in someone's front yard, but I was mad and didn't care. The car went near perfectly straight. No shrubs to pull from the fascia and 2 hours later the car was detailed.

The bad.

I was forewarned by a member at VA that there would be some "popping" when making turns with the OSG. With one of these concluding the statement --> :D. I think that knowledge is what saved me from getting my 15 minutes on CNN after the first "pop."

If you do enough reading on diffs and/or you are old enough to have been around before some of the modern car parts were available, you'll certainly know that a locker or solid rear doesn't work on corners. Duh. Hop hop chirp chirp. The OSG is obviously not a solid rear and is designed to let the outside wheel roll faster than the inside wheel. Duh again. But there is a break-in on this capability of one wheel rolling a different speed than the other. It is called the "pop."

My favorite pop, I came up with a nickname for. The Triple-Bang. Each time the diff pops it is tinkering with the definition of violent. The car jerks when it does it. 3 in a row in the same corner? Triple-Bang. I could even turn the wheel a few degrees and then immediately correct when taking off straight from a stop sign and it would pop. I guess you really don't need to turn the car to get your complimentary pop.

The OSG was sold to me with a statement of being one of the diffs of choice for drifters. A sport whereas the whole idea is to be past the point of traction. What about driving where traction is preferred? Where a loss of traction could be disastrous? I would put sums of money on it that if I had a triple bang on wet pavement the car would step out. Would that happen on a curve or corner as found on a closed course? Wet or dry? Have not been there yet. Just providing you with info that you won't be told before the purchase. Judge your application carefully.

There is a brighter side to all of this though, and that is the popping is way less frequent now at 2K miles. I no longer grit my teeth when turning.
 

dave6666

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Here's an idea. How about posting the good and the bad?
Respect my ass?
Respect is saying what you mean and not beating around the bush. Or making people ask you repeatedly, as if your opinion is so all-valuable that they somehow owe you a special request. You brought this up, why not just follow through?

Good and bad posted - DONE

Have you ever known me to not say what I mean? EVER? :lmao:

In regards to your demands of how I should utilize my time, I had been thinking of doing a write-up on my OSG experience. Now that I have a few K on it. I coincidently - and surprisingly - saw this old thread back in the top 10. I chimed in with a brief statement. Someone commented back to it. I didn't want to take the time to do a full write-up so I gave another brief reply.

Then someone hit a nerve. I saw my ugly segment being needed. And I laid it out. You obviously either didn't like that or didn't care for it or whatever, but I'm not here to please anyone in particular.

The 1-1/2 hours I spent writing the good and the bad were available to me this morning. All the while the ugly is done and slept off. I saw no reason to repeat any of it and did not. However, the nerve remains.
 

Bobpantax

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Thanks Dave. Isn't the Giken adjustable? If so, perhaps you can have it adjusted to eliminate what you are describing.
 
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Canyon707

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I guess there is good and bad with just about everything and it's always good to hear it. I have had mine for quite some time and have not had any issues with it. I took advice from Unitrax on breaking it in but, I think it was more the new gears than the OSG. I drag race often and found it to be better than my old OEM never had a Quaife so I really can't speak of the difference between them. My findings were no wheel hoping, better straight line performance ( not sliding to one side) I have not had any problems with it 7500 miles on the OSG. It's good to hear others comments. I drive the street like a normal person not that I want to but, it just keeps my insurance rate under control.
 

Cop Magnet

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Thanks for the write up Dave. I know for you that was only "gentle" prodding :D
Anyone else experience the huge banging Dave talks about in his, er, with the...rearend? Not sure how else to phrase that?
The OS Website talks about the multiple clutches engaging and disengaging "instantly" and seamlessly, which sounds improbable, but I would appreciate others' real-world feedback on it.
 

Dan Cragin

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We have done numerous of the OS Giken and Quaife differentials and supplied the core for the first drift car experiment.

I have switched over to the OS as my differential of choice on the GEN 3 and 4 models. It has advantages over the new Visco-lock unit (stronger and more positive). The biggest complaint I had with the Quaife is the loss of traction when a wheel comes off the ground, this requires a smooth driving style on the track (no rumble strips) and can be downright embarrassing when loosing traction coming out of a steep driveway. Otherwise, the Quaife is very positive and will never break. I have never had one fail.

The OS differential will apply power with a wheel off and does not require a smooth driving style. It can be tuned for street, track or drags or somewhere in between. It is a little more positive when set up "tight" but has much less tendency to "get sideways" than the Visco or Hydra lock. It does tend to have a little bit of a pop coming in and out and needs a special lubricant that contains "whale blubber" and can only be made overseas.

This unit fits Gen 3 and 4 only. For those with gen 3's who want to upgrade on a budget, the Gen 4 differential is a marked improvement.

Hope this helps, my 2 cents.
 

Bobpantax

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Hi Dan. Is that the special lubricant sold with the unit? Also, I am a little worried about a PETA member seeing the reference to whale blubber.

We have done numerous of the OS Giken and Quaife differentials and supplied the core for the first drift car experiment.

I have switched over to the OS as my differential of choice on the GEN 3 and 4 models. It has advantages over the new Visco-lock unit (stronger and more positive). The biggest complaint I had with the Quaife is the loss of traction when a wheel comes off the ground, this requires a smooth driving style on the track (no rumble strips) and can be downright embarrassing when loosing traction coming out of a steep driveway. Otherwise, the Quaife is very positive and will never break. I have never had one fail.

The OS differential will apply power with a wheel off and does not require a smooth driving style. It can be tuned for street, track or drags or somewhere in between. It is a little more positive when set up "tight" but has much less tendency to "get sideways" than the Visco or Hydra lock. It does tend to have a little bit of a pop coming in and out and needs a special lubricant that contains "whale blubber" and can only be made overseas.

This unit fits Gen 3 and 4 only. For those with gen 3's who want to upgrade on a budget, the Gen 4 differential is a marked improvement.

Hope this helps, my 2 cents.
 

dave6666

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Hi Dan. Is that the special lubricant sold with the unit? Also, I am a little worried about a PETA member seeing the reference to whale blubber.

I've had my fair share of whale blubber. Damn blind dates :rolaugh:

In other news, my unit came with 2 qts of fluid. Unitrax is the distributor to my knowledge. It sounds like DC might also be but Unitrax sent mine.
 

JAY

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Thanx to all with interesting info and especially DC Performance , in helping to make a informative decision . :2tu: :drive:
 

Nader

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That is all I have to say is that I couldn't be happier with my choice. I did have the clanking at first which went away after four or five hundred miles. I did 3.33s at the same time so I needed to break them in for 300 miles anyway.
 

Dan Cragin

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OK,
You must admit I have a sense of humor. Whale blubber is only used with rubber camshafts!
 
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Just an FYI i have about 4000 miles on my Giken now and yes I do get popping from it after very hard driving on the track. The heat generated in that situation will swell the disc's and create more preload. There is very tight tolerances in the Giken and extreme use will produce this. What I "think" it could be is the fact that there are so many clutches in the diff that some never have to move under normal use. Then when tolerances tighten they are engaged more and "pop" loose, maybe for the very first time in a long time. I did not experience any of this when the unit was new and did NOT do any type of break in, hard running right out of the box.

I loved my Quaife till my erratic driving style started slowing me down. I am too old to change my balls out driving style so I bought the Giken, and will never look back. That said I think the Quaife is the obvious choice and offer it to 85% of my customers "based on the actual use and drivers style" all questions I ask about anything I offer. You should never "tell" someone what they want or need, you should talk with them and find out what they need!
 
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Canyon707

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Love my Giken. I think I made the right choice on this. once in awhile I do get it right. Great on the drag strip straight runs, strong, no wheel hop.
 

ILLSMOQ

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I rarely( never) get to the track. I'm at 700rwhp and have the Quaife. The back of the car feels more planted in straight line acceleration and accelerating out of turns ( on the street) It's a night and day difference over the hydro-lok.

I could see how a worm gear style diff would have problems with a rear tire coming off the ground though. (this happens often on a road course?)

It's simple really. If you mostly drive on the street and want better traction and control, get a quaife.

If you need more traction than the Quaife supplies and even require tuneability in your differentail( really you're going to open up the diff and make adjustments?) Get the OS Giken. Actually popping and scraping sounds are common with clutch style differentials. Adding some limited slip additive(friction modifier) is helpful in reducing the noises and popping in clutch type differentials, though I don't know if it would be recomended for this unit. Might contact Giken and see if it would be detrimental or benificial to the differential.

The closer your Viper gets to becoming a race car, the further it gets away from being a comfortable daily driver.
 
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The Giken uses a 250W gear oil and cannot use a friction modifier.


I rarely( never) get to the track. I'm at 700rwhp and have the Quaife. The back of the car feels more planted in straight line acceleration and accelerating out of turns ( on the street) It's a night and day difference over the hydro-lok.

I could see how a worm gear style diff would have problems with a rear tire coming off the ground though. (this happens often on a road course?)

It's simple really. If you mostly drive on the street and want better traction and control, get a quaife.

If you need more traction than the Quaife supplies and even require tuneability in your differentail( really you're going to open up the diff and make adjustments?) Get the OS Giken. Actually popping and scraping sounds are common with clutch style differentials. Adding some limited slip additive(friction modifier) is helpful in reducing the noises and popping in clutch type differentials, though I don't know if it would be recomended for this unit. Might contact Giken and see if it would be detrimental or benificial to the differential.

The closer your Viper gets to becoming a race car, the further it gets away from being a comfortable daily driver.
 
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