Paxton Viper vs. N/A Viper
- Thread starter MikeR
- Start date
TT's? If you search you'll find the CPE TT kit went 10.5@140mpn with a dyno of about 840rwhp. My car went 10.5@139 on PS1's - doesn't that prove my point?
Restrictions? Meaning stock heads, like what's bolted under my Roe? Or are you referring to Nitrous/No Nitrous? Nitrous on a high boost car adds extra hp be doing a really excellent job of cooling the intake charge (100hp Nitrous makes 150rwhp @ 10# boost).
It doesn't really matter - "run what ya brung" and post your wins here. My sc'd Viper went 10.5@139mph and then someone posted that they went 10.5 with a completely stock Z06. When I had a serious problem with that, Hennessey posted that it was true.
Ted
Ted
Restrictions? Meaning stock heads, like what's bolted under my Roe? Or are you referring to Nitrous/No Nitrous? Nitrous on a high boost car adds extra hp be doing a really excellent job of cooling the intake charge (100hp Nitrous makes 150rwhp @ 10# boost).
It doesn't really matter - "run what ya brung" and post your wins here. My sc'd Viper went 10.5@139mph and then someone posted that they went 10.5 with a completely stock Z06. When I had a serious problem with that, Hennessey posted that it was true.
Ted
Ted
Just look at the dyno torque curves; Roe 800+rwtq at 2,000rpm. Stock, TT and Paxton are the same - about 200rwtq at 2,000rpm.
It was mentioned that shift point is better at peak? The Roe makes peak around 5,000rpm and loses maybe 45hp at 5800rpm. Not much loss compared to shifting.
A flat powercurve prodeces best/optimium power and a perfect example is the Roe torque curve which is nearly flat from 2,000rpm.
Set up properly at max, the Paxton and TT's will definitely show higher peak numbers, but actual driving and racing is where the Roe shines. It's the only forced induction system that makes full boost at 2,000rpm. Normally the positive displacement type of supercharger (like a GMC12-71 Blower) is undriveable and that's where Sean Roe's genius came into play with his power valve allowing the bypass so that we can drive with less than full boost, when we wish.
I like all forced induction systems, but I prefer the Roe for my driving style. If I wanted another 150rwhp, I can just put a Nitrous Bottle into the trunk. Haven't ever used it, and don't own a good set of slicks. I also have no plans to face over 150mph at this time so I will maybe never hookup the Nitrous, but it is impressive looking under the hood. If I wanted to post big numbers it would only take 200hp jets to post 1,000rwhp/1100rwtq with the rwtq being at 2,000rpm, but who cares and who could use it?
Ted
It was mentioned that shift point is better at peak? The Roe makes peak around 5,000rpm and loses maybe 45hp at 5800rpm. Not much loss compared to shifting.
A flat powercurve prodeces best/optimium power and a perfect example is the Roe torque curve which is nearly flat from 2,000rpm.
Set up properly at max, the Paxton and TT's will definitely show higher peak numbers, but actual driving and racing is where the Roe shines. It's the only forced induction system that makes full boost at 2,000rpm. Normally the positive displacement type of supercharger (like a GMC12-71 Blower) is undriveable and that's where Sean Roe's genius came into play with his power valve allowing the bypass so that we can drive with less than full boost, when we wish.
I like all forced induction systems, but I prefer the Roe for my driving style. If I wanted another 150rwhp, I can just put a Nitrous Bottle into the trunk. Haven't ever used it, and don't own a good set of slicks. I also have no plans to face over 150mph at this time so I will maybe never hookup the Nitrous, but it is impressive looking under the hood. If I wanted to post big numbers it would only take 200hp jets to post 1,000rwhp/1100rwtq with the rwtq being at 2,000rpm, but who cares and who could use it?
Ted
Snorman
Viper Owner
I think to be fair, you have to compare a relatively modded Roe car to a similar Paxton car.
The Paxton car is going to make well over 900 rwhp, the Roe is going to make a bit over 700 rwhp.
I think you'll be looking at about a 10-mph difference in trap speed.
S.
The Paxton car is going to make well over 900 rwhp, the Roe is going to make a bit over 700 rwhp.
I think you'll be looking at about a 10-mph difference in trap speed.
S.
Badazzv8
Enthusiast
I started my paxton dyno pull at about 2,200 and hit it. By the time it hit 2,300 I hat 450rwtq, and peaked at 605rwtq.
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I think that graph confirms what's been said is the advantage for the Roe. My car makes over 600 ft pounds at 2000 rpms and holds it all the way to red line.
Don't get me wrong though. Those are still great numbers.
HI-NOS-Viper
Enthusiast
Do you have a similar graph to put up so we can compare side by side?
I have one at home (I am at work). It is a line graph though, not a numerical data sheet as the one above.
Wow, I cannot believe I have read all of this. And as my first post in 2 months (self imposed) I need to clear my throat a bit as I post this.
The first graph is a compilation of dyno measurements made on my SRT. Dyno results are stock, with cat-back exhaust, with paxton, and with Paxton, Mopar race exhaust and minor tuning. Now I have always done my dyno pulls starting around 3000 rpm, the information below that point is unknown. But if we are in a race I will NEVER be below 3000 rpm, except for the initial 60 ft where trust me it is tire limited and not torque limited. In fact in the 1st 3 gears it is tire limited with anything but fully warmed up tires.
These graphs may be big but they show the whole story. Sorry horsepower is horsepower. It does not matter how it is created when it comes to how it motivates the vehicle. Is a charged engine more susceptible to heat loading? yes. But how susceptible it is depends on how it cools the inlet charge. Aftercoolers like the Paxton work best when cold and slowly heat up as they do not have enough capacity to run at WOT steady state. Thus multiple runs or continuous track use will result in increasing inlet temps. I have enough track time on mine to know that. I would guess I lose 100 hp between lap one and lap 6 on a warm day. That is a seat of the pants evaluation. All it takes is an air to air aftercooler to moderate that effect (but then add in some lag impact).
The second and third graphs are from the MCVO dyno day last year (the first in hp and the second in torque). Can you spot the Paxton and the Roe? If they lined up which do you think would win? I may know the answer as it was done! BTW I have all the data files on all runs if specific comparisons are desired.
All in all if you are bench racing, which many of us are as we hibernate, the car with the most area under the horsepower curve (or torque curve) between the shift points will have the greatest hypothetical acceleration. From there tire grip and driving finesse come into play. Do not compare a single point in a horsepower curve as it is not too meaningful.
Here is a graph I made a long time ago to demonstrate the optimal shift points for the SRT. Note the characteristic shape of the acceleration force curve? It is the torque curve multiplied by the overall driveline and wheel ratio.
The first graph is a compilation of dyno measurements made on my SRT. Dyno results are stock, with cat-back exhaust, with paxton, and with Paxton, Mopar race exhaust and minor tuning. Now I have always done my dyno pulls starting around 3000 rpm, the information below that point is unknown. But if we are in a race I will NEVER be below 3000 rpm, except for the initial 60 ft where trust me it is tire limited and not torque limited. In fact in the 1st 3 gears it is tire limited with anything but fully warmed up tires.
These graphs may be big but they show the whole story. Sorry horsepower is horsepower. It does not matter how it is created when it comes to how it motivates the vehicle. Is a charged engine more susceptible to heat loading? yes. But how susceptible it is depends on how it cools the inlet charge. Aftercoolers like the Paxton work best when cold and slowly heat up as they do not have enough capacity to run at WOT steady state. Thus multiple runs or continuous track use will result in increasing inlet temps. I have enough track time on mine to know that. I would guess I lose 100 hp between lap one and lap 6 on a warm day. That is a seat of the pants evaluation. All it takes is an air to air aftercooler to moderate that effect (but then add in some lag impact).
The second and third graphs are from the MCVO dyno day last year (the first in hp and the second in torque). Can you spot the Paxton and the Roe? If they lined up which do you think would win? I may know the answer as it was done! BTW I have all the data files on all runs if specific comparisons are desired.
All in all if you are bench racing, which many of us are as we hibernate, the car with the most area under the horsepower curve (or torque curve) between the shift points will have the greatest hypothetical acceleration. From there tire grip and driving finesse come into play. Do not compare a single point in a horsepower curve as it is not too meaningful.
Here is a graph I made a long time ago to demonstrate the optimal shift points for the SRT. Note the characteristic shape of the acceleration force curve? It is the torque curve multiplied by the overall driveline and wheel ratio.
Thats a powerful Roe car! Most are 600/600 and that is not calling in the heat generated since the paxton has an aftercooler!!
... and remember... There are no Roe options for the Gen 3!!!
the second dyno sheet... Sutherlands car... nahhh... Thats Blwn Gts's car now!!
... and remember... There are no Roe options for the Gen 3!!!
the second dyno sheet... Sutherlands car... nahhh... Thats Blwn Gts's car now!!
GR8 ASP,
Comparing my sheet to yours, I think I have a definite advantage in the first half of our "Bench Race". You're well below 600 ft pounds of torque until the higher rpms. "Horsepower may be horsepower" on the top end but torque gets you off the line and moving. You might beat me in the 1/4 but I think you'd have to run me down on the back half to get it done.
A roll on race starting at 4,000 rpms would give you the advantage with your hp curve but from a dig I think the Roe car has the advantage.
Either race would be fun to watch.
Comparing my sheet to yours, I think I have a definite advantage in the first half of our "Bench Race". You're well below 600 ft pounds of torque until the higher rpms. "Horsepower may be horsepower" on the top end but torque gets you off the line and moving. You might beat me in the 1/4 but I think you'd have to run me down on the back half to get it done.
A roll on race starting at 4,000 rpms would give you the advantage with your hp curve but from a dig I think the Roe car has the advantage.
Either race would be fun to watch.
ANIL8-U
Enthusiast
Ok this does not make sense, I have own both c6 zo6 with a pro-charger. Now I have a 2006 srt coupe that’s getting a blower ASAP.
My Z06 ran 11.44 @ 126 stock a 1.8 60ft and made 470 rwhp
After blower install it ran 10.78 @ 131 with a 1.6 60ft and made 587 rwhp on 4.5 pounds.
I want to see 130 plus out of my viper or I’m going to be pissed.
Not to boast but I can drive my ass off and I’m no lightweight jockey either.
My Z06 ran 11.44 @ 126 stock a 1.8 60ft and made 470 rwhp
After blower install it ran 10.78 @ 131 with a 1.6 60ft and made 587 rwhp on 4.5 pounds.
I want to see 130 plus out of my viper or I’m going to be pissed.
Not to boast but I can drive my ass off and I’m no lightweight jockey either.
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You don't mention anything about tires or car prep but all things being equal, if you're as good a driver as you state, you shouldn't have any problem seeing 130 plus.
ANIL8-U
Enthusiast
ran the car on DR's, drove the car 30 miles to the track
Power Adders (Nitrous, Turbo, Supercharger) ------*Current Avg. 10.494 secs. @136.34
1---9.946 @139.85--1.46---07WhiteDevilZ------'07 Details
2--10.765 @131.90--1.66---ANIL8-U -----'06 Details
3--10.773 @137.28--1.80---Super4x4Duty-----'07Details
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4.5 pounds of boost(pro-charger MC Racing KS), AR headers, Spec stage 3 plus, and BFG's.. I can email the time slip.
60'.............1.666
330'...........4.522
660'...........7.010
660’ mph...103.79
1000'..........9.045
1320'..........10.765
1320’ mph…131.90
Name of the track: Kansas City Int Raceway
Date of pass:3-10-07
330'...........4.522
660'...........7.010
660’ mph...103.79
1000'..........9.045
1320'..........10.765
1320’ mph…131.90
Name of the track: Kansas City Int Raceway
Date of pass:3-10-07
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here is a video
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Badazzv8
Enthusiast
BTW, I'm completely stock except for the basic paxton kit. I am also untuned, which is one of the next things that I'm doing.
I know you're being serious, but it would have been a great place for sarcasm, seeing as though I didn't post a real graph, haha.
Thanks, and how much boost are you running? I think you and I having similar numbers would be a good race to tell the outcome of this race, but there's no way I'm getting out to St. Louis, and I doubt you're coming out to Omaha anytime soon, haha. I'd love to dyno back to back with you on the same dyno and then race to see exactly where we stack up.
Here's my actual graph for comparison and if someone can overlay it.
I know you're being serious, but it would have been a great place for sarcasm, seeing as though I didn't post a real graph, haha.
Thanks, and how much boost are you running? I think you and I having similar numbers would be a good race to tell the outcome of this race, but there's no way I'm getting out to St. Louis, and I doubt you're coming out to Omaha anytime soon, haha. I'd love to dyno back to back with you on the same dyno and then race to see exactly where we stack up.
Here's my actual graph for comparison and if someone can overlay it.
You must be registered for see images
black mamba1
Enthusiast
Most stock Vipers have around 440 rwhp stock. Do Z06's have a lower power loss thru the tranny than Vipers? Is 470 rwhp normal for stock Z06's?
I have an 8 lb pulley on there right now and my tune is limited by the fuel system. I am hitting 8-9#s on my in-car boost gauge under WOT but I am not sure how accurate it is. I plan to upgrade to a dual fuel pump system and a 10# pulley later on.
I don't see myself making it to Omaha either. You should consider coming here though for a Joe Donovan (PBJ Performance) tune on your car.
ANIL8-U
Enthusiast
yes that was average last year.
Badazzv8
Enthusiast
I have an 8 lb pulley on there right now and my tune is limited by the fuel system. I am hitting 8-9#s on my in-car boost gauge under WOT but I am not sure how accurate it is. I plan to upgrade to a dual fuel pump system and a 10# pulley later on.
I don't see myself making it to Omaha either. You should consider coming here though for a Joe Donovan (PBJ Performance) tune on your car.
I already bought a spare ECU, and am going to get a tune from DC. Just have to actually do it, but the car won't be back until April anyway, so I'm not too worried about it just yet. I also want to get the DLM IC upgrade and a Corsa too. I'm not really looking for more power, so I think my 8psi (only in the cold, 7psi in the summer) and current fuel should be sufficient. I just want to smooth out my curve a little and get the better driveability that has been spoken about with the DC tune. I can feel somewhat of a wall around 4,000 in third and then it picks back up after about 5,500. You can see my torque start to fall and settle, then peak again. With the tune, I expect to pick up a few more hp across most of the rpm band, and maybe a little better peak number at the top of the graph.
Originally Posted by v10kingsnake
One last time for your peanut sized brain Davie. Richie holds the WORLD VIPER RECORD FOR AN SRT USING A BLOWER ON STREET TIRES @ 10.4. This was done on a car with a stock clutch with over 20k miles on it at the time and just over 920 RWHP. Yeah Dave, sounds like a grandma pass to me too . In fact I believe Richie made about 4-5 passes that day and all were within a tenth or 2 tops of the record pass so he sure ***** at driving fast.
That must have been with a Paxton. My 720rwhp Roe went 10.5@139mph with the stock tires on it. 10# pulley, water/****, TD's, 9-1 pistons, stock heads with .708cam and 1.7 rockers, Larry Macedo Airbox, Edelbrock headersa and Corsa exhaust, Unitrax axleshafts & loops, Brembo pump, Larry Macedo built the engine. No nitrous, I have a 100hp kit on the car that has never been hooked up.
Ted
One last time for your peanut sized brain Davie. Richie holds the WORLD VIPER RECORD FOR AN SRT USING A BLOWER ON STREET TIRES @ 10.4. This was done on a car with a stock clutch with over 20k miles on it at the time and just over 920 RWHP. Yeah Dave, sounds like a grandma pass to me too . In fact I believe Richie made about 4-5 passes that day and all were within a tenth or 2 tops of the record pass so he sure ***** at driving fast.
That must have been with a Paxton. My 720rwhp Roe went 10.5@139mph with the stock tires on it. 10# pulley, water/****, TD's, 9-1 pistons, stock heads with .708cam and 1.7 rockers, Larry Macedo Airbox, Edelbrock headersa and Corsa exhaust, Unitrax axleshafts & loops, Brembo pump, Larry Macedo built the engine. No nitrous, I have a 100hp kit on the car that has never been hooked up.
Ted
