Questions and Comments - A Bit long

[I Ben Therbefor]

A series of questions:
The 03 Viper is being defended as resulting from the requests of current Viper owners. Can anyone show me any survey, article or any document, which presents the current Viper owners as requesting a less bodaciously styled car? Can anyone show me any documentation where current Viper owners requested a less radically styled car? Can anyone recall any conversation with anyone from DC where the topic was a toned down styling of the Viper?
Can anyone show me anything that shows anything other than pride in the styling of the current Viper by the current Viper owners?

Another question:
When defending the 03 Viper against styling criticisms, why do the defenders appeal to the engineering improvements in the new car? The question is the styling not the engineering! As I understand the defenders, they would have everyone believe that the improvements in engineering will overcome the drabness in styling. Or make you forget the styling, or put up with the styling.
Sounds akin to the arguments on the Corvette forums where the Corvette is defended as being a “balanced” sports car having lost the position of performance king to the Viper.
Those kinds of arguments used to be called “sour grapes”, from a children’s fairy tale where a fox excused his inability to leap high enough to grab some grapes by saying the grapes were sour anyway.

A parallel:
In the early fifties, MB, now DC, introduced the 300 SL to the sports car racing world, winning three of the four races entered with that car. In the middle fifties, MB introduced a street version of that car, the famous 300 SL Gull Wing. Somewhat later, MB introduced a roadster version of the same car. The car sold slowly, not being equipped for US driving habits at the time; no air conditioning and no automatic transmission. The next version of the SL was the infamous pagoda roof version. That car sold a lot better, becoming the vehicle of choice of the wealthy suburban matrons of that era.
The ads for the current DC SL appeal to the spirit of the original gull wing version. No one would ever appeal to the pagoda roof model, as it had no spirit.
The Viper is undergoing a similar evolution into a car that appeals to a much different population than the original buyers. From DC’s point of view, a much larger population and therefore a much better economic decision.
By the way, if Dodge wants to appeal to the spirit of the Viper in their ads, I suggest they show the LeMans winning GTS in the background not the 03 car which has yet to demonstrate any spirit.

A Prognostication:
In the future, the GTS will be looked at with the same fondness as the 300 SL. The GTS will become the collector’s car of choice.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Ben, the Data you requested was compiled at VOI 5, and to some extent VOI 6. There were a series of "town hall" meetings, in which Team Viper held open discussions as to what the Viper was to become. The majority of the requests centered around remaining the performance king. There were some that wanted comfort (you now, the GTS owners) like cruise control, cup holders and dead pedals. There were very few (if I recall 2) who wanted the Viper even more crude than the original. And finally, there were some that had to have a styling statement.

Who is right and who is wrong is not an answer, since there is no way of determining. But the rules changed once PVO essentially became a self sufficient entity. They need this key vehicle to be a hit, in order to keep the funds coming in to build future products (like maybe a GTS) and the only sure way to do this was to keep the car balls out, while making it easier for more people to actually drive it (not just the insane current group).

While the Viper is 15,000 or so strong, and we love our cars, there is a sports car market that is 250,000 a year strong. Viper needs to start grabbing those people as well, so PVO can grow. I know many Ferrari and Porsche owners that DO NOT LIKE THE CARTOONISH looks of our current Viper. How do you propose we convert them? And before you start with the typical "rave", if you want something radical, get a Comp Coupe! Viper has never been more radical than that!

 

[King GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bsteinhagen:
DC needs to understand that when you get into the exotic car field that it is a combination of style and performance that the folks who spend the big bucks for the car want. And lets face it...$70+K is big bucks. I for one do not want to see the Viper become another Corvette. I like exclusivity and like the attention the car gets.


Our world has become so bland...so stressed...so mundane...that it is fun to see the reaction of the people who see a Viper. The kids smile and point. Folks at the gas station ask about it. Guys working on road crews stare as you go by. Dang this car is exciting. For those of us old enough to remember the late 50's and 60's that is what it was all about. In those days cars were exciting and lots of them were out their to get excited about. Impala's, Galaxies, Belvedeers, Healeys, MG's, Cobra's ordered in a variety of styles, colors and options...each car was unique to its owner.


Where today do you go to get that same feeling. We now have options packages (which really mean no real choice...just get the package!) colors are dull and lifeless...greys, beiges...two tone--forget about it! Cars have become like refrigerators or PC's...a tool..nothing more.


Then along comes DC and builds the Viper and then the Prowler...WOW...something exciting...something wild...something in bright colors!


DC needs to understand that is what this car is all about...hopefully they will bring out a SRT-GTS that comes close to the competition coupe in looks....and excitement! Performance is just one part off the package...but DC don't be like Corvette and forget the looks along with the engineering.


After 27 years on Vette ownership...I got a 2001 Viper GTS in Race Yellow. We have spent over six hours at home trying to pick the right custom license plate for the car....never did that with a Vette. Look at the 50th Anniversary Vette with the Caddy two tone interior...really gets the adreniline flowing (LOL)!


DC don't loose the excitement! Bring it on!


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EXCELLENT POST!

 

[onerareviper]

Steve Ferguson,

I understand where your coming from ($$$ perspective), but saying, "get a Comp. Coupe", is illogical. IT IS NOT EVEN STREET LEGAL. Sure, I love the Comp. Coupe, but give me something I can 1.) Drive on the street 2.) Not need a racing background/license to purchase 3.) A production car produced in sufficient quantity. THEN I'LL BE HAPPY.

bsteinhagen,

I've been reading this board religiously for almost a year. Your post, without a doubt, captures the essence of the Viper better than any I've read. Congrats on that post. DC should print & frame your comments.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Everyone is judging the styling before we have had a chance to 'personalize' it. The black (or possibly silver) stripes I'll add will make it more aggressive, the nostril blacked out in the shape of the old NACA duct will add to the front styling, the blacked out hood louvers will replicate the old 'speaker' look, and the headlight 'eyelids' (which I will have to make myself) to give the shape the old 'snake eyes' squinted look will be the finishing touch to the front end. A nice decklid wing with blacked out tunnels will finish the back. The sides of the car look great to me, no changes. Yes the headlight assemblies, as they are, are way to similar to other current designs and the less rounded front end and side air outlets don't scream muscle anymore, a few subtle additions should fix it.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Shyster, I was conveying the comments form Ferrari and Porsche owners on what they have told me about the current model we drive. Again, I personally like the SRT/10 much more than my own RT/10. My RT/10 (which will never leave me) just looks like a kit car next to the new model. Now I understand what the others are talking about. I did not buy, nor will I ever buy a Viper or any other car based on looks. I bought a Viper because I wanted to own the crudest vehicle produced in the 90's. It is because of that fact that I did not keep or like the GTS when I got it. If given the choice, none of my sports cars will ever have air. When Dodge asked me on the order for the GTS if I wanted air or no air, I selected no air. Unfortunately, I was the only one out of 1126 orders who made that request, so they elected to not build it that way for me. O well. Viper is about performance, and the SRT/10 will be the pinnacle of Viper when you mention performance. If you are hooked on a look, then keep what you got. I for one appreciate the power, and am personally pissed about the refinement in the SRT/10, but to get the power, so I will have to live with a leak proof car, and a fricken dead pedal (YUCK)!

As for getting something that looks like a Comp Coupe, the only way that will happen is based on the success of PVO. Based on the business plan they are following, you are more likely to see that car.

 

[King GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by manasas1:
Everyone is judging the styling before we have had a chance to 'personalize' it. The black (or possibly silver) stripes I'll add will make it more aggressive, the nostril blacked out in the shape of the old NACA duct will add to the front styling, the blacked out hood louvers will replicate the old 'speaker' look, and the headlight 'eyelids' (which I will have to make myself) to give the shape the old 'snake eyes' squinted look will be the finishing touch to the front end. A nice decklid wing with blacked out tunnels will finish the back. The sides of the car look great to me, no changes. Yes the headlight assemblies, as they are, are way to similar to other current designs and the less rounded front end and side air outlets don't scream muscle anymore, a few subtle additions should fix it.

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That's just a little bit too much to add to a Viper IMHO. I had a Z28 SS when I was a kid and I added all kinds of body parts, kits, etc. I liked the fact that w/ the Viper, you didn't need to add ANYTHING. It was ready to go.

 

[GTS Dean]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Ferguson:
I know many Ferrari and Porsche owners that DO NOT LIKE THE CARTOONISH looks of our current Viper. How do you propose we convert them?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When all they ever see in the rearview is the menacing look of the snake reeling them in (thru the corners, no less) at an unbelievable rate, or watching that unmistakable rear end sporting 335 meats spitting stones at them as they haul balls away, they never will like the car. How would you feel if you dropped from $35k to $150k more on a "true exotic" that can't stay out of the shop or keep up with the "just a Dodge" "cartoon car?" The radical styling adds insult to injury. They are not, and never will be, converts. The guy I toyed with in the Avatar was astounded by how my street car (with only race pads and K&Ns back then) on R1s could trounce his 355 on Pirelli slicks - and he was no slouch driver.

The new car's styling is simply an affront to the bloodline. Ferguson, you are the most ardent defender of a car with no soul and you are in the minority.

GTS Dean - mamby-pampby cushy GTS owner & Gen1/2 "Cartoon" Viper enthusiast.

 

[King GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GTS Dean:
When all they ever see in the rearview is the menacing look of the snake reeling them in (thru the corners, no less) at an unbelievable rate, or watching that unmistakable rear end sporting 335 meats spitting stones at them as they haul balls away, they never will like the car. How would you feel if you dropped from $35k to $150k more on a "true exotic" that can't stay out of the shop or keep up with the "just a Dodge" "cartoon car?" The radical styling adds insult to injury. They are not, and never will be, converts. The guy I toyed with in the Avatar was astounded by how my street car (with only race pads and K back then) on R1s could trounce his 355 on Pirelli slicks - and he was no slouch driver.


The new car's styling is simply an affront to the bloodline. Ferguson, you are the most ardent defender of a car with no soul and you are in the minority.


GTS Dean - mamby-pampby cushy GTS owner & Gen1/2 "Cartoon" Viper enthusiast.

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I couldn't agree more!!

 

[Mike Brunton]

so you guys who are saying we'll never convert the Ferrari or Porsche guys would say that your limited experience with a very few owners (or even a "lot" of owners) is more relevant than Dodge's market research?

Dodge has said that the SRT is a "home run" with all but us - but many seem to deny that statement.

It seems to me that the current Viper buying group ain't enough to support the car as it stands. We all love the styling and power and all that, but the *facts* are that they ain't selling too good. And we expect Dodge to make a car that likewise appeals to a small market and hope that we'll all give up our GTS's and RT/10's to buy one?

I can see exactly what Dodge is doing. Would you guys rather have no Viper at all, or the SRT? If the answer is "none at all", I'd ask why not? Is the SRT *really* such a **** in the pool to pollute every other Viper to the point where you'd rather they kill it than make one you don't like?

I would think anyone who thinks the SRT is ugly, *****, and is a POS would be really happy, because if that is really the overriding opinion (which most say it is), then the value of the GTS's and RT/10's just went through the roof! Funny though, there wasn't a scramble to order '02 GTS's. Or are you guys waiting for a year or two before you sell your GTS for somewhere in the 6-figures?

 

[Mike Brunton]

I also wanted to add that I know alot of folks feel that there are no folks who like the SRT. I would say there probably just aren't too many with the time or motivation to "discuss" the car on here. I have gotten emails from probably 20 folks just telling me they feel the same way about the SRT - they like it, and want one, but don't want to deal with the hassle of arguing about it on here. I can probably count on both hands the number of folks who have seen the SRT in person and did not like it, and who post on here. I can probably count on both hands the # of folks who have likewise seen it and do like it. Certainly the # of no-likes is higher - but probably more like 2:1 and not 99% being no-likes.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Jon,

I give you a 10.0 for your comment to Steve - hilarious

As for the SRT - I've said before that I too wish it was more aggressive looking. When the very very first pics were posted, I was the first one to say "wait, this *****" after folks were praising it. Maybe it's because I don't have a Viper anymore, or because I have come to appreciate the other aspects of a sportscar that the GTS didn't have - I don't know. It's also partically seeing the car in person and thinking it was alot lower and wider than the one I had. I would also like a more aggressive SRT, but I guess Dodge figures a more aggressive car wouldn't sell as well as it needs to. Given the choice between an SRT that I like the look of and that has awesome #'s, or no Viper at all, I'll take the SRT. I hear the plight of my Viper brothers who wish the SRT was more aggressive

, but Dodge needs to sell these, and the Viper aint' selling to good lately, so they are (logically) expanding the market.

 

[I Ben Therbefor]

Reading this thread has helped me clearify my thinking on the subject of the styling of the 03 car. Thanks to everyone for their comments.

The implication seems to be that Dodge had a choice between a "cartoon" and "bland", with cartoon not selling and bland selling. Yet there are cars in the market place with unusual styling that sell very well. Bland simply is not appropriate for this car. The Viper is not a bland car! Apparently the hope is that the performance will overwhelm the styling. That may happen but there's raeson for it having to happen.

My present understanding of my response to the 03 Viper is that there's no excuse, either marketing or aerodynamic for the way it looks.

The improvement in mechanicals is very much appreciated but not the degregation in styling. I think the problem is that Dodge styling has lost direction with this car. Perhaps they are spending their best on pick up trucks. The styling people simply failed to deliver a Viper. The car isn't a good example of any type of styling, not even bland.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Jon, you don't want me to bring up that "air" issue again do you? Is there something wrong with someone actually appreciating a back to basic, no frill sports car, while others like all the amenities? I have not bashed any of you "purists" who drive Vipers with air conditioning and windows. Yet you all feel you have a right to attack those who love their Viper for reasons other than yours. I don't get it. Now will you quit posting pictures of your awesome car collection!

Dean, based on what you said in your post, don't you think that people are going to be even more impressed with the SRT/10 when it shaves FULL second(S) off of current Viper track times? You of all people should enjoy supreme performance. One of the first statements you ever made in front of me was back in Detroit on our way to dinner. You, me and Mike Morss were walking into Charlies ***** and they were resurfacing the parking lot, you said, "smells like money to me". Mike (in the roofing business) nodded in agreement, but I was lost. Then you said, "my guys do this all over Texas, and it's nothing but money." At that point I got it. What one thing means to one, does not always translate into the same meaning for another.

 

[King GTS]

*bump*