setting MAP code after S/C install

BOTTLEFED

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Posts
1,447
Reaction score
0
Location
Pocatello,ID
I finished installing my Roe supercharger and it is running lean. I need to add some fuel and tune it better.

But every time I go WOT it sets a "MAP Sensor - Low Output" code on the PCM

I have it connected like stock and then the VEC2 vac.line running to the base plate (per Sean's instructions)
The VEC is set to internal MAP

any ideas :confused:
 

Bobpantax

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2000
Posts
6,961
Reaction score
3
Location
Miami
I finished installing my Roe supercharger and it is running lean. I need to add some fuel and tune it better.

But every time I go WOT it sets a "MAP Sensor - Low Output" code on the PCM

I have it connected like stock and then the VEC2 vac.line running to the base plate (per Sean's instructions)
The VEC is set to internal MAP

any ideas :confused:

If Sean can't help you, there is only one person to call - The Wizzard A/K/A Chuck Tator at Tator Dodge.
 

ViperTony

Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Posts
7,554
Reaction score
0
Maybe you shorted the map sensor wire when you tapped into it with the Vec wiring? Bad map sensor? You stated you tried both tapping into it the MAP sensor wire and connecting vac line to the Vec. You can log both the stock MAP reading and Vec Vac line reading and see if there's a big difference between the two. This may help determine if your MAP sensor went AWOL. Did Sean already have you try this? He's really good at using the Vec logging features to troubleshoot issues like this.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
B

BOTTLEFED

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Posts
1,447
Reaction score
0
Location
Pocatello,ID
I can't get ahold of Sean, I called friday and left a message but no call back

So Tony, are you saying to change the VEC back to using the stock MAP sensor and run it on that for logging?
 
OP
OP
B

BOTTLEFED

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Posts
1,447
Reaction score
0
Location
Pocatello,ID
BTW, does the VEC internal MAP sensor only control air/fuel when in boost and the stock for off-boost functioning? or does the VEC always control functioning and the stock MAP is only plugged in so a code isn't set?
 

ViperTony

Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Posts
7,554
Reaction score
0
I can't get ahold of Sean, I called friday and left a message but no call back

So Tony, are you saying to change the VEC back to using the stock MAP sensor and run it on that for logging?

I have a Vec3 so I hope this applies to the Vec2 as well. I'm able to use BOTH MAP inputs through the Vec but only one (internal vs. stock) for Vec tuning. By tapping into both, I can log both MAP inputs and compare the two in the log to see if they're both reading the same or if one is way off compared to the other. Scroll down to Post #3 in This Thread and you'll see what I'm talking about. I did the dual-map logging for diagnostic purposes.
 
OP
OP
B

BOTTLEFED

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Posts
1,447
Reaction score
0
Location
Pocatello,ID
I see Tony, so just connect the VEC back up to the MAP signal but don't change the settings on the VEC from using the internal MAP
this should show the reading from the stock MAP but not use it for functioning

so does this answer my question above about only the VEC internal MAP controlling functions at all times and not only during WOT?
 

ViperTony

Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 3, 2006
Posts
7,554
Reaction score
0
I see Tony, so just connect the VEC back up to the MAP signal but don't change the settings on the VEC from using the internal MAP
this should show the reading from the stock MAP but not use it for functioning

so does this answer my question above about only the VEC internal MAP controlling functions at all times and not only during WOT?

Yes on your first paragraph. As for the second question, I don't know. I know the VEC certainly kicks in during WOT and you need to use the Vec MAP sensor because you're SC'd. But I don't know what the VEC does during closed loop operations and if that's different with a S.C. setup. I'll leave this one to the experts.
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
duplicate. so sorry
 
Last edited by a moderator:
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
Hey guys...

First, you first calling Sean was the right way to go. It is very unusual that he didn't get right back to you. Here is his cell phone number, call him at a decent hour as the guy works very hard 904-535-4949.

First we start with terms for those that do not know them:

http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/600255-glossary-terms-induction-engines-tuning.html

PCM to makes automated adjustments to the motor by the reading sensors and applying programmatic tuning (injector offsets as example) and, in regard to the VEC3, the ability of the VEC3 to apply more appropriate tuning in Open Loop operations.

Bar pressure sensor (BPS) Description of pressure, the VEC3 has an internal Bar Pressure Sensor that can read 30” Hg vacuum to 22 PSI boost pressure within the manifold. This provides additional data required top properly configure the adaptives interfacing with the stock PCM.

Boost See “Forced Induction Engines.” Compressed air, above what is considered “normally aspirated”, measured in pounds of pressure delivered to the intake manifold.

Closed Loop A term whereby the stock PCM is monitoring the oxygen sensors and making constant changes to the injector pulse to keep the air / fuel ratio in the factory programmed range. This is a low load condition, one in which the stock PCM has the ability to make adaptive changes automatically. See “Open Loop.”

Compression Ratio The ratio between the volume of a combustion chamber and cylinder, when the piston is at the bottom of its stroke and the volume when the piston is at the top of its stroke. The higher the compression ratio, the more mechanical energy an engine can squeeze from its air-fuel mixture. Literally, high ratios compress increased oxygen and fuel molecules into a reduced space, allowing for increased power at the moment of ignition. Higher compression ratios, however, also make detonation more likely. See “Detonation.”


Lamda = When air and gasoline are mixed together and ignited, the chemical reaction requires a certain amount of air to completely burn all of the fuel. The exact amount is 14.7 lbs of air for every pound of fuel. This is called the "stoichiometric" air/fuel ratio. It's also referred to the Greek letter "lambda." When lambda equals one, you have a 14.7:1 stoichiometric air/fuel ratio and ideal combustion. When the air/fuel ratio is greater than 14.7:1, lambda also will be greater than one and the engine will have a lean mixture. Having stated that, it is important to note that, under load, a normally aspirated motor may perform best at 12.9:1, while a forced induction motor may perform best anywhere from 11.5:1 to 12.5:1 depending on air temperature and other variables.

Lean mixtures improve fuel economy but also cause a sharp rise in oxides of nitrogen (NOX). If the mixture goes too lean, it may not ignite at all causing "lean misfire" and a huge increase in unburned hydrocarbon (HC) emissions. This can cause rough idle, hard starting and stalling, and may even damage the catalytic converter. Lean mixtures also increase the risk of spark knock (detonation) when the engine is under load.

When the air/fuel ratio is less than 14.7:1, lambda also is less than one and the engine has a rich fuel mixture. A rich fuel mixture is necessary when a cold engine is first started, and additional fuel is needed when the engine is under load. But rich mixtures cause a sharp increase in carbon monoxide (CO) emissions, generating more heat at the catalytic converter with resulting damage.

When the relative proportions of air and fuel are "just right," the mixture burns clearly and produces the fewest emissions. The trick is balancing the mixture as driving conditions, temperatures and loads are constantly changing.

Log, logging = Graphical and numerical visualization and verification of numerous performance monitoring sensors. Captured for a discrete period of time and displayed in a variety of manners, a log provides the user with concrete indications of current engine performance and tune. Form the data represented in the log, one can tune the engine to achieve a different performance outcome.

Manifold Pressure = The pressure in the intake manifold of an internal combustion engine. See MAP.

Manifold Vacuum = Engine intake vacuum in an internal combustion engine is the difference in air pressure between the engine's intake manifold and Earth's atmosphere.

MAP, MP = Manifold Absolute Pressure Directly related to engine load, and used to help determine the Air to Fuel ratio and the appropriate timing for the ignition of the cylinder

Open Loop = A full throttle condition where the stock PCM switches out of “closed loop” operations. In open loop the stock PCM ignores input from the oxygen sensors and the normal adaptives are locked-out and pre-set curves come into effect.

VEC = Viper Engine Controller, a Roe Racing product that actively assists the Viper's own PCM in providing proper tuning.

PCM = Pulse Code Modulator, a term referring to the stock factory “on board” engine monitor/computer.

Throttle Position = The relative position of “openness” of the throttle body, the higher the position the more air is being delivered to the intakes.

WOT = Wide Open Throttle, the highest/hardest acceleration. See “Engine Load.”

The issue of the PCM throwing a "low signal" code when you go WOT.
I am with Viper Tony on this one, you either damaged the MAP wire and are getting a diminished signal, have a bad MAP sensor (smaller chance of that) or have miswired the rig, In any event, its all an easy fix. And there Viper Tony is giving great advice as well. You should log the signals of BOTH the Vipers own MAP sensor (external VEC setting) against the VEC's own MAP sensor (internal setting). By looking at the two signals logged out you;ll be able to see if the stock MAP sensor is generating any signal and if it is, if it close to the VEC's own.

The issue of whether you can run the Viper by just using the VEC's own internal MAP signal. Yes, I use the VEC's internal MAP sensor for all my work and you can to. I would still completely resolve the stock MAP issues though.

The issue as to when the MAP sensor is actually used...in Closed Loop...Open Loop or both. In Closed Loop (90% of all of our driving) the PCM relies heavily on all of the sensors. The output of the MAP sensor is used in conjunction with intake manifold air temperature, throttle position, RPM, O2 sensors, etc., etc. as well as various other static tables to determine the amount of incoming combustion air and consequently the amount of fuel to be metered to get the rig close to LAMBDA. Now in Open Loop, the engine switches off these interactive tables and goes to a hard map. That map is set based on the tuning work that you will do based on your logs. So...in Open Loop the MAP sensor is not used but the VEC is still hard at work, haivng been instrumental at resetting the hard maps taking into account all the substantial modifications you have made that the stock PCM just does not have premapped.




 
OP
OP
B

BOTTLEFED

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 5, 2007
Posts
1,447
Reaction score
0
Location
Pocatello,ID
So Dan, you're saying that, on a Roe car using the VEC internal MAP sensor, the stock MAP sensor is used for closed loop functioning and then the VEC MAP sensor takes over for open loop?

so why does my stock MAP sensor throw a code in WOT (open loop)?
 
D

DAMN YANKEE

Guest
No, no , that is not what I am saying.

VEC is working with the PCM for BOTH Closed AND Open Loop...
When you select "use the internal (VEC) MAP sensor" that is it...its using that sensor for everything.

Like I said...and I think everybody else has said...You have an error being thrown because:

1. You split the wire when you crimp into the line, or at least diminished it to a weak/intermittent(?) signal.

or

2. You have a bad MAP sensor

or

3. Your wiring is incorrect.

You will get a bad MAP sensor error code for the stock MAP sensor until it is fixed because the PCM is still recognizing the signal.
It is just that you are not using it to adjust your settings through the VEC. Your using the VECs MAP sensor so you've run right around it.

Did you get through to Sean? Be sure and double back for us and let us know what he says.

Thanks,
 
Top