VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

[V 10 MAFIA]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

The only way to settle this is to have a dyno set up at the next VOI for everyone to witness with stock baseline results and added Vipair results using the same car. Then when the final results are in everyone can brawl and let years of thousands of post, arguing and pent-up feelings detonate while we're all together. Then buy each other drinks afterwards.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

in honor of yet another thread on the subject - here is a ressurection of one of the longest threads ever

for the record - I and others have said it before - somewhere lost in here....lol FORGET DYNOS!!! The whole concept is going to work as speed builds up and outside air rushes in if it works at all.

For it to work on a dyno - it'd have to offer more cfm while stationery and the unit it replaces would need to be restrictive.

Too many knee **** reactions around this. I don't care of you have a dyno that will measure a tenth of a hp difference. If a road racer can pick up 5mph down a back straight after a long history of knowing what their benchmark is - and no other changes - that's worth hp at speed to a racer. End of story - get over it guys.

If it can't pick up speed down the back straight or trap speed on the 1/4 - then it doesn't work.

This love affair with dynos is misguided - they are only a tool and far from perfect when it comes to on road at speed conditions. Real racers know this. Benchracers don't.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Here is a post from the Alley from a guy who bought one and uses it, the majority of the nay sayers have never tried or buyed


jcasper89
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 290

Rep Power: 0
TO ALL THOSE THAT BAG ON THE VIPAIR: Have any of you tried it? I bought it, and I think it is Awesome. Everyone has things to say about it all because some guy (who didn't know what he was doing) tested the Vipair, and found no difference with or without. I bought one, and can feel the difference. Bagging on the Vipair with out trying it is like ripping on a movie you've never seen, or a food you've never tried. If you haven't tried it, then your opinion on the matter is worth about as much as an IOU from Saddam Hussein. It's worthless. (Your opinion, not the Vipair, The Vipair is Awesome)
__________________
Arguing on the Internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win you're still ********!!

 

[V10SpeedLuvr]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Ahhh yes, using the opinion of a guy who makes fun of Special Olympic athletes in his signature to show the Vipair is a superior product. He seems like a classact, I'll take 10.

No, I don't have one. No, I'm not buying one. No, I dont even need one. It may be a great product, but I would've at least edited out his signature line in your quote. While you're at it, why don't you see if you can get Kramer to try to hock them in the parking lot at the next BET awards show?

 

[FE 065]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I think it's the 'feel the difference' or 'feels like' part that created the firestorm. Along with stationary HP gains.

I've picked up 25hp from a mod, but couldn't 'feel the difference'. Maybe my butt isn't as calibrated as jcasper's?

As far as I know, to date no one has ever claimed an ET gain from the Vipair. Just SOTP impressions and dyno numbers.

500 units sold (?) and no one has ever posted an ET gain? Not even the manufacturer?

The other 16,000 or so Viper owners could have used some drag strip verification a long time ago. The longer it went, the less certain its' benefits became.

 

[Sam 01 RT10]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Does anyone still have any of those magic beans laying around?

 

[twinturbo3150]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Does anyone still have any of those magic beans laying around?

I do!!! how many would you like

 

[V10SpeedLuvr]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

His magic beans are fake! You'd come out better buying my oceanfront property in Arizona. I accept PayPal.

 

[Sam 01 RT10]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I'd like a dozen magic beans, but only if they are the ram-air attenuated, injection molded, cross-polymer linked dyno tested variety. The last guy I got those beans from claims he worked for Toyota, and they were made from unobtanium, but no one knew anything about them.

 

[Russ M]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

What ever happened to the Vipair dyno day?

Did it actualy happen?

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

IT WAS RAINED OUT

 

[Vic]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

A stationary dyno of any type doesn't begin to touch on possible gains in breathing at speed. A fan blowing on the front of a Viper, while its straped to a dyno, doesn't approximate the characteristics of the incident wind created while the car is moving.

What you need to scientifically evaluate something like the Vipair in constant, repeatable conditions, is a wind tunnel/dyno, (if such a thing exists).

In lieu of that, some racers may have their max straight line speeds memorized from familiar road courses, but only those who consistently exit the last turn before the straight at the same precise speed, each and every time, and then also notice an increase in speed by the end of the straight, could honestly say that they notice a difference with Vipair. Or, if you run real tight laps, within a second of each other, every time you go to a particular track, and you notice a constant, significant improvement, with no other changes having been made, then you might be one who can say they notice an improvement with a Vipair installed.

What I would like to hear is, some experienced road racers takes on it. That would go beyond anecdotal testimony, imo.

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

"I bought one, and can feel the difference."

Uhhhhh.... No, you can't.

And for those who claim that the extra hp can't be measured on a dyno....
That makes some sense, since the thing is supposed to make some power by directing high speed air.

So let's say it makes you some extra power at high speed.
How much extra power does it take to increase the high speed performance of a Viper?
I'd say it takes quite a bit.
Any small gain from Vipair at high speed will not be something that anyone would notice or be able to measure.

As for rejecting mod ideas without trying them......

Ever try one of those electric superchargers?

 

[Vic]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

How much extra power does it take to increase the high speed performance of a Viper?
I'd say it takes quite a bit.

Thats a fact.

Something about the wind resistance increasing with the square of the speed?

Another possibility is the cooling effect of the incoming air. After heat soak has stabilized, what is the temperature of the coolant, both with, and without the device? These questions beg for a wind tunnel. Lets ask high speed aero guru Gordon Murray, McClaren F1 designer. He has a ton of research in these matters.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Hey Vic and Joe - my 2 favourite Viperclub members

I agree 100%. I think the Vipair definitely has the potential to add power at speed, it certainly looks better than the stock airbox - but "I feel..." does not prove anything for this type of modification.

We just tried a fuel saving mod on an SRT10 Ram. Owner/driver thought it was smoother and went just as well as before - with less throttle to get same speed. It saved 10-30% on fuel re normal city/highway driving

However the dyno showed a power loss of 7% power, with a loss at WOT right thru the rpm range. Yet the owner thought it was the same or better.

Reason was: at partial throttle the fuel saver gave better vaporization so it went better at light throttle and used less gas - so FELT better. But at heavy throttle - it all turned to poop. The computer was getting messages from the O2 sensors that told it to throw in a heap more fuel it did not need - so at WOT the factory rich 11:1 A/F ratio dived below 10:1 right across the rpm range. The only reason there was no black smoke was the very efficient cats burning it all up. At 500hp - you do not feel a gain/loss of 20-25+.

As for Vipair - I'd try one for cosmetic and "feel good" reasons rather than on a specific power gain claim. There's a few happy customers out there - it's another customizing option - why not.

As you point out Vic - few road racers take speedo readings off a set marker point then compare lap to lap.

Getting good baseline data from customers is one of the hardest accurate things to get. As customers we just want to drive the cars...

 

[Vic]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

As you point out Vic - few road racers take speedo readings off a set marker point then compare lap to lap.

Um, hum, you said it right. Add to that the uncertainty of changing air temperature, tire temperature, tread life, track temperature, angle of the sun, changing humidity, etc, etc, and you are left without a consistent, repeatable test condition, and with so many variable factors occuring, that would skew any test and render it meaningless.

 

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I still think it is the most artistic dustpan that I have ever seen. If someone could fashion a long handle to it I think we could have a great pooper scooper as well!

 

[Daniel Cragin/DC Performance Inc]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

This product has some sound engineering behind it. We converted many race cars to a grill mounted air intakes and picked up quite a bit of power. All the GTSR's deleted the NACA duct and used the front grill. I think at speed this product will supply more cool air to the intake. My 2 cents.

Dan Cragin
DC Performance
310-841-6996

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

"We converted many race cars to a grill mounted air intakes and picked up quite a bit of power"

How did you measure it?
How much power?

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Joe - Dan has spent a lot of time working with road racing Vipers including Competition Coupe teams. Profesional teams data log every lap and they will certainly notice extra speed on the straights from making any changes. Whether those teams or Dan feel free to share that information is another thing - but Dans word confirms the concept is justified.

My own view FWIW has not changed - just looking at it and the way it works makes perfect sense to me and I would definitely consider running one for fast road or road/race. Most scoffers are street racers and posers who wouldn't know an extra 25hp if it hit them in the face - but the lack of scientific data and dyno credibility lets the product down in the eyes of some.

I do not see you as a scoffer or cynic Joe - I see you as an honest skeptic who wants honest answers. That is fair.

Actually you would be a good customer to try one because you will be one customer who would have the patience and ability to measure a difference.

I have a Vericom unit that tests accurately - but for those that do not - manual testing is accurate enough to show a difference if done over enough runs and over a variety of conditions. e.g.

I'd select a marker on a safe straight I could pass at 100mph in 4th gear then nail it. Measure speed at next chosen marker. Log it. Repeat several times over different dates and conditions to see a pattern and work out best/worst and averages. The car will gain some predictability over time setting a benchmark this way.

Then add the product (maybe it is a money back so if no gain you could return it???) - and retrial over a period making sure car maintains a good tune to prevent other variables.

Not as scientific as a dyno - but far more real world. Averages over a period level out variables such as throttle delays, reactions etc. You'll get it down pat and learn the truth a dyno cannot teach you.

Only a special performance computer could do it better.

 

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Torquemonster,

One of my points has always been 'why does the customer have to do the testing?' Shouldn't this be done by the product development team??

The theory of this product is that the air temp is lower versus the NACA duct. I think we would all agree that if this proved true then there would be some performance increase.

However, there was some third party testing done (many pages ago in this thread) that did temperature testing with and without the product at speed and found no difference. Seems pretty scientific, and better than trying to average out all the human factors on a track.

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Torky,
As Vipah said, the measurements were made. With the Vipair in place, driving down the highway, there was no difference in ambient under the hood air temp vs. intake air temp.
There was no difference in pressure either.

So let's say that the test just missed it, and there is a 25hp boost at 140mph.
Will that make any difference? Will it add 2mph to the top speed or reduce the 120 to 150 time?

Perhaps it will. And for a race car, why not have it?

But look,
The problem was that they were telling people that the thing gave a SOTP feel of 50 extra hp. And that was on a regular drive through town.

In my opinion they were blowing smoke, trying to get ordinary Viper folks to buy a thing that would never really give any boost that anyone could feel.

And now the value of the thing seems to be centered around race cars going 140mph or more?

The ad hype was my complaint. Not that it wouldn't work a little at 140mph+

By the way, the Vipair folks provided the unit to be tested.
When the results were not what they wanted, they attacked the test and the guy who did it.

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Here's what they said that started the whole thing.
Is anyone going to claim that they feel that 50hp boost with a Vipair while driving home after bolting it on?

"Baseline run the car did 371.9 RWHP and 419.9 RWTQ, 5 minutes later with the VIPAIR™ installed the car did 388.3 RWHP and 436.5 RWTQ an increase of about 16 RWHP and 16 RWTQ. While this result was exciting the best part was the drive home as the car felt like it had picked up an extra 50 RWHP, all the extra cold air was doing its job."

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Here's what they said that started the whole thing.
Is anyone going to claim that they feel that 50hp boost with a Vipair while driving home after bolting it on?

"Baseline run the car did 371.9 RWHP and 419.9 RWTQ, 5 minutes later with the VIPAIR™ installed the car did 388.3 RWHP and 436.5 RWTQ an increase of about 16 RWHP and 16 RWTQ. While this result was exciting the best part was the drive home as the car felt like it had picked up an extra 50 RWHP, all the extra cold air was doing its job."

Joe,

Thanks for bringing us back to the original claim which I and others have made "that you can feel the difference". Some of us have a lot of seat time and others do not. Feel is a personal thing, some people are more sensitive to a minor changes and others are oblivious to everything that doesn't land liek a brick on their head. I cannot remeber who did the temperature test that you mention but you can bet it was not read with a data logging recorder off the computer, and the "air pressure" tests were not conducted with the rain drain tubes pinched so any extra air pressure would escape through these before creating any "boost" or "positive" or less negative air manifold pressure, especially testable with the device that was used, again a data logging from the MAP sensor would be the best for this test.

We have never had a Vipair returned or even a request to return one, by anyone, anywhere, anytime. Over 500 in use and no dissatisfied customers.

Even RussM did not return his free one............

PS. I did have an aerodynamic engineer lined up to do some testing but he crashed his viper, so that didn't pan out, I do not have an air tunnel, or an air tunnel with a rear wheel dyno for that matter. If I did I would do the testing you request but right now we have to rely on the logic, the actual race logged and tested Viper GTS-R race car experiences and results and the experience of those like Dan Cragin and other racers ( Mumford, Norm K. etc.) whether drag or road, most of which in NA applications use a Vipair™ or similar device. They use it because they believe it works and 1+2=3, even with a Vipair™,

1) it directs high pressure air from the facia into the airbox,
2) it prevents hot underhood air from entering the airbox,
3) if you cap off your rain drains and block your Naca duct ( which the GTS-R race car developers found sucked air out of the airbox to the point that it cost them lap times at 60+ MPH ) on your airbox it helps build positive Manifold pressure.

Even dodge themselves had it right on the Gen 1's (like you have) and they went back to the same concept on the gen 3's, the Naca was and is an ornamental and detrimental air scoop on the Gen 2's.

Sometimes if it looks like $hitZ and smells like $hitZ, you don't have to taste it to know what it is.

 

[GTS Bruce]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

I'd be willing to part with up to $5.00 for one shipping included. GTS Bruce

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Bruce,

If you can find one for that I'll buy it off you!

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Joe - I hear where you are coming from... I seem to recall the tests now you mention them... I also recall thinking at the time the tests were not totally without question... something like 50-70mph - certainly not over 100mph.

Having driven a Viper over 100mph every time I have driven one - gains from that point on make sense to me. I do understand however that for many owners - what happens after 100mph is of less importance and many are happy with factory performance.

Having driven a twin turbo Viper - I'm ruined. Stock Vipers feel slow now.... lol It's gonna cost me a whole lot more to be satisifed now.

 

[joe117]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

"1) it directs high pressure air from the facia into the airbox,
2) it prevents hot underhood air from entering the airbox,"

If you have done any testing to show that this is true, please post it.

As you mentioned, RussM did make those measurements and found no cold air and no pressure difference at highway speeds.

The myth of "ram air" at car speeds has been debunked over and over on this thread.

You haven't done any testing.
You have claimed a SOTP feel of a 50hp boost.
You have rejected the temp and pressure testing that has been done.

 

[GTS-R 001]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

Joe ,

There is a point where your statements do not make sense,

if you look at pictures of the Vipair and how and where it is attached and the physical barriers that it makes between the airbox and teh engine compartment, there is absolutely no way that it does not:

"1) direct high pressure air from the facia into the airbox,
2) prevents hot underhood air from entering the airbox,

If you argue these 2 points then you must be saying that:

1) as a viper drives the air that is coming into the front grill opening is not under pressure and that when redirected from the high pressure area it is still not under pressure

2) That when you present a physical barrier betwwen the hot engine bay and the airbox opening that you are NOT preventing said hot air from entering the opening.

Joe are you saying these 2 things?

Joe, Look at your airbox intake on your Gen 1, does it do the same 2 things??? The vipair does the same only it still allows the NAca duct to function.

There is a point where arguing about the obvious is pretty senseless, I understand that you Russ and Vipah, drew your lines in the sand and have done everything to "debunk" the vipair "myth", but there is a point when one has to use a little common sense.

 

[vipah]

Re: VIPAIR™ Dyno Results on 99 RT 16 RWHP!!

GTS-R 0001,

You are pretty funny. Don't let facts, science, and testing interfere with the handwaving pretty pictures. LMAO.

Are you saying actual test results don't matter?

I saw a picture of a Jackalope, a UFO, an Extraterrestrial Being, and a Unicorn the other day. In your arguments that makes them all real

LOL