Calling All Viper WIZARDS!!!

ViperTony

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How about some pics? It would help if we can see the condition of the coating of the SVS headers, connections, turnouts, 02 sensor locations, wiring, etc...We may spot something not-so-obvious in the pics. Some history on the Quickfire O2 sensors from DC Performance. Some aftermarket headers for the GenII relocated the O2 sensor location into the collector area further away from the stock O2 sensor location. In some cases, the new O2 location caused the OEM sensors to not heat up fast enough and throw heater circuit codes. Some of us have tried drilling out the holes in the O2 sensor to make them bigger and heat up quicker but that did not always work. DC Performance sells a set of "QuickFire" 02 sensors that solves the heater circuit problem in this scenario. Depending on where your O2 sensors are located (sounds like they were extended away from the headers) I would suggest looking into these sensors.
 
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dave6666

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Dude... You're scaring me. Maybe.

The modified wiring... Not on the sensor right? On the car side of the connector? And electrical tape... NOT the way to protect a solder joint. Assuming it was done on the CORRECT side of the O2 connector. What do the solder joints look like? There are such a thing as bad solder joints that to an untrained eye look great.

Electrical tape has no place in chassis wiring except to secure the plastic loom here and there. NOT for corrosion and moisture protection/prevention.

So OK... Here's how I ran my wires. All soldered to NASA specs and sealed with adhesive lined heat shrink and then insulated with wrap by Heatshield Products. Like I said, I spent some time on this...

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JeffTheViperMan

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Well, I'd have to say that the soldering job on the harness side of the connector was done properly. It it sealed with heat shrink and has visible adhesive glue sticking out of each end of the shrink wrap. The electrical tape was just acting as loom, which I can't say is any better or worse than the plastic loom which is usually slit down it's length anyways. Of course, I didn't cut the shrink off to check the actual solder joints, but I'm slowly starting to think that the wiring isn't the issue, even with the goop that's in the harness. (I'll try again to get pictures of it, but I don't have our GOOD camera with me here in Ohio.)

Dave/Chuck/Anyone else, can you answer a couple questions for me?
What is the general consensus regarding the location of the O2 sensor in regards to "in" or "out" of the exhaust stream, and distance from the engine for optimal heating?

Here's why I'm asking. Despite the possibly-less-than-perfect wiring/looming job on the O2 sensors, I'm not getting any codes from the O2 sensor signal itself - just the heating circuit. The original owner thinks the sensors are getting too hot. Chuck on the other hand suggests that the sensors are too COLD, being that they're located all the way out into the side-skirts. I also read some other discussions on this same forum regarding the downstream O2's proximity to the cats and how being too far away can throw codes for being too cold.

When I reset the computer, the light will stay off until the car is cold-started. When I cold-start the car, it'll usually trigger the light within seconds - long before the engine is actually pumping serious heat into the exhaust. This tends to make me think - after what I've been reading - that the O2 sensor is too far away from the heat source, and isn't warming up as quickly as the computer thinks it should.

Chuck's suggestion for this - besides possibly relocating the O2 - is to wrap the exhaust from the collector to the O2 (and slightly past) with header wrap to trap the heat until it gets to the O2. I honestly don't know how easy it will be to relocate the O2 (obviously realizing that I'll have to take it somewhere to have this done) because the collector itself sits pretty close to the sideskirts already, and I think the most I'd get is maybe 6 inches or so.

I also read about someone using the Spark-Plug no-foulers to move the O2 sensor out of the exhaust stream. I'm not exactly sure what the benefit of this would be except maybe keeping the sensor screen clean and prolonging life. But I also think that - if the sensor is already too "cold," pulling it out of the exhaust stream could make it worse.

Also, can someone PLEASE tell me precisely where G103 is - the ground connection where the O2's ground to the block? Since I'm getting identical codes from both O2's, I can't dismiss the possibility that it is an issue in the harness which feeds both sensors simultaneously. I also considered that the ASD relay isn't sending enough voltage to the heater circuits, though my tech said that he checked out all the voltages and resistances and everything was OK.

Sorry to make this so long. Thanks for the help. dave6666, where's the best place to get that heat wrap for the wires? I'm willing to give that a shot, in case the heat from the exhaust is increasing resistance in the wires and causing bogus readings - another possibility, though again probably not in the first few seconds of operation...

Jeff
 
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dave6666

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I had the same preheat issue with my OE sensors. You can see the plugged **** in one of the photos (above) from where Belanger supplies the single tube location. I was throwing preheat codes there and solved that by drilling the sensor tips out to let more exhaust gases circulate. Then I decided to move the sensors to the merge collectors per some recommendations by tuners, and the codes came back. I solved that problem for good by putting in quick fire's from DC Performance.

I probably went overboard on the heat sleeving. Better safe than sorry has proven to be useful more than once in my life...

Here's the stuff:

Heatshield Products Hook and Loop Seam Reflec-A-Sleeve

G103...

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dave6666

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A few other comments. I should emphasize a little more to get the quick fire sensors to address your preheat codes. Viper Tony had to tell me twice I think... ;) As far as the location of the sensors, as close to the engine as you can while picking up all 5 tubes. That may or may not be tricky depending on what your collector looks like. The sensor tip obviously needs to be in the gas stream. Here's an inside look at mine:

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Lastly, if you need me to look at the front of my engine for G103 I can later today. Rain in the forecast and I'm in the F350 until Miller time.
 

Kevan

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When I reset the computer, the light will stay off until the car is cold-started. When I cold-start the car, it'll usually trigger the light within seconds - long before the engine is actually pumping serious heat into the exhaust. This tends to make me think - after what I've been reading - that the O2 sensor is too far away from the heat source, and isn't warming up as quickly as the computer thinks it should.
If it's throwing a code that quickly, it sounds more like an electrical issue (grounding, soldering, short) than an electromechanical issue (O2 sensor, sensor location).

It's such a gorgeous day, I'm half-tempted to drive over to Zanesville and just start yelling out "Jeff! Jeff! Jeff!".
Can't be more than a couple of you guys there.
:D

(seriously, if you want a hand...just buzz)
 

CitySnake

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I just wanted to take a moment here to publicly thank "Crazy" N. Texas Dave. I've been following this thread to educate myself (and of course hoping for a resolution ;)) and Dave's photo posts are exceptionally helpful. Thanks Dave! :2tu:

OK....back to Sherlock Holmes...
 

dave6666

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I may even have more pics of my car than I have crain bells :beer: left.

I did the old right mouse click - - gimme the properties thing - - on my Viper folder last weekend and I have over 1500 files. Mostly pics, and mostly pics of mods or just stuff I took apart once.
 

ViperTony

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A few other comments. I should emphasize a little more to get the quick fire sensors to address your preheat codes. Viper Tony had to tell me twice I think... ;)

4 times but I don't keep count. :2tu: Great pics BTW. I have my O2 sensors in the same location.

Jeff: Get the QuickFire O2 sensors from DC Performance...they solve the problem of heater circuit codes I detailed in an earlier response.
 
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JeffTheViperMan

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Grrr - I'm on DC's website and I can't find them... Links? Or I could just call...

Can you tell me more about these quick-fire O2's? What's quick-fire about them? Are these going to be plug-and-play? I'm going to get some pictures of the current setup tonight. I REALLY don't want to go chipping off this ceramic coating to add a **** to move the O2 all of 6 inches or so.

I too thank you Dave. You've been a tremendous help.
 

ViperTony

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Grrr - I'm on DC's website and I can't find them... Links? Or I could just call...

Jeff, give Dan at DC Performance a call first before ordering. He can also give you some tips on what to look for. I'm ass*u*ming the O2 location on the SVS headers is located further away in the collector like the Belangers. Just something to consider along your troubleshooting journey.
 

dave6666

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They are plug-n-play. Just call them. May not be listed on the web site but they do have them. They can also supply them with extended wire length.

What's quick fire is the heat up time. And yes, if yours are located as far out out as the sills you either need them or have a PCM problem not telling the heaters to work or a wiring problem not giving power to the heaters. Simple solution is the quick fires to start with.
 
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JeffTheViperMan

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ORDERED.

I spoke with Dan (very helpful guy - I smell a Wizard Apprentice) and did exactly that - told him what I have and he was able to offer just the right part for my needs.

At $99 a piece, that's a deal I couldn't pass up. That's probably cheaper than OE O2's at a dealership!!

I'll have them next week. Now all I need is wires from AB and hopefully I'll be able to attend the PA Region's Covered Bridge Tour next week!!!

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU to Dave and Tony. This should leave enough residual funding for that Venom membership I've always wanted... ;)
 
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JeffTheViperMan

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Quick Update:

The sidesills were removed with no issues (that front "PITA" screw inside the door was already gone on both sides!) and exposed the O2's, which came out almost under finger-pressure.

The plugs have been replaced. The old ones weren't bad - in fact I'm keeping them as emergency back-ups - but new ones were gapped and installed. The exhaust has been wrapped from just above the collectors, all the way down to the cats. Today I'll be spraying the wrapping with DEI High-heat silicon coating. (The wrap, straps and O2 wiring heat shielding is all by DEI.)

The right-side O2 wiring was cleaned and rewrapped. It was actually the harness wrap that was greasy - I don't know if it was OEM harness or maybe something added on when the wires were lengthened. Anyways I cut as much of it out as I could, and rewrapped it.

Hopefully the Quick-Fire O2's and AB's wires will arrive today. The windshield cowl is removed and I'm ready to swap the wires as soon as they come in. The O2's are coming with heat-wrap, and hooking all that up should be a breeze.

I should be able to fire it up by tomorrow. Anyone have any advice on how to do a complete wipe of the PCM memory? I want it back to complete default mode...

Jeff
 

Jack B

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Here's what I learned tonight.

I got the car on some jack stands and got both front wheels off. The collectors sit just behind the wheels, and then lead directly into a bend which routes the exhaust along the sidesills. The O2 sensor is located in the bend, pointing outwards into the sideskirt.

The wiring runs about 3 inches from the exhaust, only for maybe a foot, then runs back over the frame. The factory connector is mounted into the wheel shroud, and the wires from the connector have been lengthened.

Here's what concerned me. The wires appear to be soldered and shrink wrapped - looks pretty well done. I of course have no way of knowing if the right wires were routed to the correct pins of the plug. What REALLY concerned me though is that I unwrapped the electrical tape that was used to wrap the new wires. When I got to the soldered splices, I suddenly found that the wires were soaked in some sort of oily-grease. It appears to wick up the wires beyond where I can reach. It's not sealant or dielectric grease, but I can't place the smell. It's very dark, and very oily and dirty. This was on the passenger side of the vehicle. I tried to get pictures, but they didn't come out very well.

I didn't get the driver's side unwrapped yet. The O2's really seem to be in good shape, the wiring all looks fine. Also, since the light literally sets immediately after the car is started, I'm not thinking that the wires are getting too hot - it's something wrong with the initial startup of the sensor. I checked the engine ground - it looks fine. I tried to find where the O2 sensors ground to the block - at Ground 103 near the cam position sensor, but I couldn't see anything. Frankly, I couldn't even find the cam position sensor itself.

I pulled one spark plug - the only one I could get to easily. It looked fine - black at the top, but the electrode was clean. It had a light smell of gasoline - it was the plug that set the misfire code. But nothing indicative of a severe misfire or weird burn.

I'm going to unwrap the driver's side tomorrow and see what I can learn. I'm going to try and check to see if the wires match to the correct pin in the O2 connector. For now, I need to figure out what this crud is in the wiring harness, and where it's coming from.

Jeff

That oily residue is a bi-product of the adhesives that were originally in the electrical tape. Electrical tape is not meant for high temp applications.
 

Jack B

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If it's throwing a code that quickly, it sounds more like an electrical issue (grounding, soldering, short) than an electromechanical issue (O2 sensor, sensor location).

It's such a gorgeous day, I'm half-tempted to drive over to Zanesville and just start yelling out "Jeff! Jeff! Jeff!".
Can't be more than a couple of you guys there.
:D

(seriously, if you want a hand...just buzz)

Keep in mind the O2's are not in the circuit during a cold start, the car is not running closed loop. Some of todays newer cars (tighter regulations) play a game with a/f and rpm that super heat the cats during a cold start, it this case the O2 warmup cycle is far more critical and almost instant.
 
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