Calling All Viper WIZARDS!!!

[JeffTheViperMan]

Hi All,

I primarily put this thread here in the hopes of attracting the illustrious Viper Wizard. I called over to Tator's and left a detailed message, but thought I'd share this here for anyone else to chime in.

Part 1 of the Story: I bought my Black 2000 Viper GTS Coupe on November 1st of last year. I drove it over 400 miles from Chicago to Zanesville, OH with no issues. A week later I jumped in for some end-of-season fun, and lo and behold, the check engine light came on. I checked the codes (they're listed below) and cleared them. She ran okay for a while. Then the light came on again. I drove it to my home in Harrisburg and took it to my local dealer where I used to work. They ran a series of tests dealing with the codes, couldn't find any issues, cleared the codes again and it stayed off for a few months.

Part 2 of the Story: I took it for an oil change at a local shop here in Ohio. While firing it back up with the new oil added, a tech noticed spark coming out of the heat-boot around the 7th cylinder. So I pulled the plug and sure enough, it was melted at the top of the boot where it met the wire. It was touching the SVS Headers with the heat boot pinched between. I replaced the wires with MSD wires and after the install, got one good day of glorious Viper driving. The misfire-pop at idle went away, the strange burning smell from the cats went away, and she ran like a dream.

Part 3 of the Story: I got in the Viper two weeks after replacing the wires, and the check engine light came on almost instantly. I drove it around town just a little bit, and within about 15 minutes of driving, developed a severe engine misfire. I immediately got it back to the garage. Today I finally got a chance to borrow an OBD scanner. It had NINE codes. Two of them are the same codes I've been dealing with since day one...

P0135 02 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction - Bank 1 Sensor 1
P0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder misfire
P0155 02 Sensor Heater Circuit Malfunction - Bank 2 Sensor 1
P0308 Cylinder 8 Misfire
P1195 Manufacturer Control Fuel Air Metering
P1196 Manufacturer Control Fuel Air Metering
(the following codes were "pending")
P0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder misfire
P0302 Cylinder 2 Misfire
P0304 Cylinder 4 Misfire

Let's see, the car has SVS headers installed, CERAMIC coated exhaust, lightweight flywheel, and the Snake Oyl Cruise Control, which I recently installed and have barely even used yet.

One piece of info - the previous owner (who I think knew about this but didn't tell me) said that his technician suggested that with the ceramic coated exhaust, exhaust temps are getting hotter than normal, and might be throwing off the calibration of the PCM as it tries to activate the O2 sensor heater circuits. I find that difficult to believe, but if so, will have to either install the factory exhaust, or get some electronic O2 simulators just for the heater circuits.

Also, I've already spoken to AB about wires - he's going to be getting back to me soon and I'll order them this week and return the MSD's.

Sorry for the long post, but I want this problem fixed in TWO WEEKS so that I can attend the PA Region Covered Bridge Cruise on April 25th. Also, I want to FINALLY enjoy the car of my dreams that has caused nothing but problems since day 2...

 

[Steve-Indy]

Since these headers have a "little history" in our Region... I would look for melted O2 sensor wires (again) and melted plug wires (again). Go with ab 's wires/boots ASAP.

As "ceramic coatings" have been known to fail on more than one header brand, you might want to consider a repeat coating of the headers using the 2000 degree type and consider more heat shielding.

 

[JeffTheViperMan]

Can you tell me a bit more about the header history? Is there a specific area that the O2 wires are melting at? I haven't seen any failure of the ceramic coating, but how would that necessarily affect performance? I mean the exhaust isn't normally ceramic coated anyways...

I talked to AB for a while tonight - he suggested checking the engine grounding strap, checking the spark plugs (which I can't even get to without some fancier tools) and checking to see if any ceramic "coating" might be stuck in the threads of the O2 sensors, thus affecting the circuits.

 

[SkyBob]

Also, I've already spoken to AB about wires - he's going to be getting back to me soon and I'll order them this week and return the MSD's.

Why return the MSD's? Were they defective?

 

[JeffTheViperMan]

Well, for starters, the check engine light has been on and off for 6 months now, but not until I put in the MSD wires did I actually start getting these cylinder misfires. It's running worse than ever with less than 60 miles on the new wires.

 

[99 R/T 10]

I would start with the O2 sensors. Just me, but I would replace both for sh!ts and giggles and throughly check the wires for any breaks and/or melting that might have occurred.

 

[Camfab]

I've got the SVS headers and I can tell you that wire routing is critical. I've got to look at the car to remember what wires I've toasted, but the clearances are extremely tight. I use Mopar Performance wires, and I'm sure AB's wires are great. If the wires touch the tubes it's game over real quick. Most likely as mentioned above you've toasted the wires to the O2 sensors. Mine are sleeved with heat reflective ceramic woven tubing and they still get charred with cats. I don't believe the ceramic coating is part of your issue, but I suppose anything is possible.

 

[JeffTheViperMan]

How hard is it to get to the O2's in this beast? Any tips or tricks you guys/gals can recommend? I'm heading back down this afternoon to start some dissasembly - going to pull out the airbox on the passenger side to ease access to the plugs per AB's recommendation. Any idea how hard it is to remove the wheel wheels? It looks like they hold in place with plastic twist-pins of some sort. I imagine I can get to the O2's easily with those removed.

 

[Steve-Indy]

As Camfab noted, it seems to be the closeness of the wires to the tubes...noting that I saw two sets of the Mopar performance wires melt on an early Gen II. The ceramic coating can flake off on any brand of system creating focal hot spots.

 

[JeffTheViperMan]

I'll be checking that this afternoon. I also just read this:

From All-Data:
The O2 Sensors must have a source of oxygen from outside the exhaust stream for comparison. O2 Sensors receive their fresh oxygen supply through the wire harness. This is why it is important to never solder an O2 Sensor connector or pack the connector with grease.

I wonder if whomever worked on the exhaust last decided to pack some sealant into the connectors, or if, during the installation of the headers, had to lengthen/shorten the 02 wires and perhaps soldered them together. Regardless, I've added this to my "checkout" list.

 

[Kevan]

Jeff- if you're going to pull the headers, may I suggest you get them Jet-Hot coated this time instead of ceramic.
I did it to my OEM exhaust manifolds and it dropped their temp from 625ºF to 350ºF.

 

[JeffTheViperMan]

Well, I'm really hoping not to have to pull the headers - I can't imagine how complicated that is with nothing but a bag of Craftsman tools at my disposal. Besides, the entire exhaust is ceramic coated - not just the headers, and by dropping the exterior temperature of the exhaust to 350-degrees, aren't you raising the internal temperatures to ridiculous levels? The heat coming out of your tailpipes would be incredible, and could cause damage to the catalytic convertors, O2 sensors, resonators, and even the rear of the body.

So far my check-out list is this:

Check to make sure engine is properly grounded to chassis.
Check plugs for fouling
Check O2 bungs for ceramic "leftover"
Check O2 harness and connectors for sealing, solder, coating, etc.
Check O2 wiring for proximity to exhaust or other high-temp items.
Check grounds of O2 sensors to G103 ground near Cam Position Sensor.

...and growing.

 

[bluesrt]

viper wizard here!!!!! rip all that aftermarket crap off your car,install all factory stuff back the way it was....put some new plugs and wires on it,maybe some new coils too,what the heck,some new o2 sensors,, ummmm check for and butchered or melted wireing, ummmm-- well after that see what you get...

 

[Kevan]

Well, I'm really hoping not to have to pull the headers - I can't imagine how complicated that is with nothing but a bag of Craftsman tools at my disposal. Besides, the entire exhaust is ceramic coated - not just the headers, and by dropping the exterior temperature of the exhaust to 350-degrees, aren't you raising the internal temperatures to ridiculous levels? The heat coming out of your tailpipes would be incredible, and could cause damage to the catalytic convertors, O2 sensors, resonators, and even the rear of the body.

Aside from the MagnaFAIL (alleged) stainless steel cat-back exhaust turning out like the title of Megadeth's 4th album, there have been no issues with my Jet-Hot'd exhaust manifolds, cats, sensors, nor any unruly temps.
Check out the Jet-Hot site for more info on how they deal with the heat.

I haven't done it on a Viper car (yet), but I would image it would be similar to what we do on the Viper trucks: headers go in/out through the front wheel wells.
Attack it from the side!

 

[JeffTheViperMan]

I just got off the phone with Chuck - sir you're a gentleman and a scholar.

I now have a solid "to check" list that I'll be tackling this afternoon.

Thank you.

Jeff

 

[Brian GTS]

Yes, Chuck's the man. Hope you can get it worked out and see you at the Lancaster event.

 

[dave6666]

If you need any help with wire routing or heat shielding of exhaust components and sensor wires I have some great pics of what I did on my GTS. I have had zero issues. There was some time involved but worth it.

 

[JeffTheViperMan]

Hey Dave, I'm always open to ideas. Time is something of a concern, but the biggest issue is that I have limited tool resources while I'm out here in Ohio.

One thing I could use a little help on is how to install the factory header heat shields. I HAVE them, and they're here in Ohio, but I have never actually seen them on the car, so I don't know how they should look. Does anyone have pictures of the heat shields and where they bolt to so I can reinstall them overtop of the headers?

I'm actually getting anxious to start tearing into some Viper meat this afternoon!!

Jeff

 

[dave6666]

I made my own heat shields after determining that with at least the Belanger headers, fitment would at best be ugly. So what do they look like with SVS headers? Um, well... You may need Kevlar gloves and a hammer. There are also special double ended studs on 3 of the header bolts to mount the shields to.

On the O2 sensor wiring there were stories of how people were able to stretch the factory wiring etc to make it reach the sensor mounting location I have, which is the merge collector. I choose to not guitar string the wires and lengthened the chassis side of the harnesses. You can do that side but not the sensor itself.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Jeff, I'm not how much help it may be, but if you send your e-mail address to me, I can send you two photos that I just took of the stock heat shields on a 2001 using a camera phone.

 

[Viper Wizard]

I just got off the phone with Chuck - sir you're a gentleman and a scholar.

I now have a solid "to check" list that I'll be tackling this afternoon.

Thank you.

Jeff

Jeff,
Very nice speaking with you today too! Hopefully you'll be able to pin point the problem and if your in the middle of checking things and are not sure about something, don't hesitate to call me.

There are a lot of good suggestion here and at least you now have a place to start.

Let us all know what you find!

 

[Viper Wizard]

viper wizard here!!!!!

Me

 

[JeffTheViperMan]

Me

Haha!! I was wondering on that.

Well the weather was pretty miserable here yesterday afternoon so I opted to stay home and wait for clearer skies to drive down to the garage.

Today is looking much better so I'll be tackling my "to do" list this afternoon for sure.

AB, if you see this, I'll be getting those extra pics you required today!! Thanks everyone.

Jeff

 

[bluesrt]

Me

just jokin,no need to get your ******* in a ?

 

[dave6666]

When Chuck does get his ******* wedged he usually just starts practicing roundhouse kicks until they unwedge.

 

[ViperTony]

When Chuck does get his ******* wedged he usually just starts practicing roundhouse kicks until they unwedge.

True...I certainly don't recommend ******* off the Wizard. Remember the story about the visiting Chrysler lawyer(?) and Chuck cleaning his gun in front of him.

 

[JeffTheViperMan]

When Chuck does get his ******* wedged he usually just starts practicing roundhouse kicks until they unwedge.

Hang on, are we still talking about the same Chuck?

I hear Norris likes to roll that way, too...



Wow, talk about hijacking my thread...

 

[2snakes4us]

Please retitle your Post to "Calling all Viper Gear Heads"

there is only one Wizard.....and that title belongs to Chuck Tator

 

[dave6666]

Wow, talk about hijacking my thread...

Get used to it.

 

[JeffTheViperMan]

Here's what I learned tonight.

I got the car on some jack stands and got both front wheels off. The collectors sit just behind the wheels, and then lead directly into a bend which routes the exhaust along the sidesills. The O2 sensor is located in the bend, pointing outwards into the sideskirt.

The wiring runs about 3 inches from the exhaust, only for maybe a foot, then runs back over the frame. The factory connector is mounted into the wheel shroud, and the wires from the connector have been lengthened.

Here's what concerned me. The wires appear to be soldered and shrink wrapped - looks pretty well done. I of course have no way of knowing if the right wires were routed to the correct pins of the plug. What REALLY concerned me though is that I unwrapped the electrical tape that was used to wrap the new wires. When I got to the soldered splices, I suddenly found that the wires were soaked in some sort of oily-grease. It appears to wick up the wires beyond where I can reach. It's not sealant or dielectric grease, but I can't place the smell. It's very dark, and very oily and dirty. This was on the passenger side of the vehicle. I tried to get pictures, but they didn't come out very well.

I didn't get the driver's side unwrapped yet. The O2's really seem to be in good shape, the wiring all looks fine. Also, since the light literally sets immediately after the car is started, I'm not thinking that the wires are getting too hot - it's something wrong with the initial startup of the sensor. I checked the engine ground - it looks fine. I tried to find where the O2 sensors ground to the block - at Ground 103 near the cam position sensor, but I couldn't see anything. Frankly, I couldn't even find the cam position sensor itself.

I pulled one spark plug - the only one I could get to easily. It looked fine - black at the top, but the electrode was clean. It had a light smell of gasoline - it was the plug that set the misfire code. But nothing indicative of a severe misfire or weird burn.

I'm going to unwrap the driver's side tomorrow and see what I can learn. I'm going to try and check to see if the wires match to the correct pin in the O2 connector. For now, I need to figure out what this crud is in the wiring harness, and where it's coming from.

Jeff