Mopar "650HP" pkg installed

[Upgraded]

Spoke with Todd at Arrow Racing, the inventer of this upgrade. I am sooooooo stoked to be hopefully driving my Gen 3 with Gen 5 performance. Is this a dream come true? Dropped another grand on a fuel pump today. This is O.K. Dyno sheet coming soon. Sorry, from what I understand this is a CAR upgrade not a TRUCK upgrade. If you have a TRUCK call Sean Roe (904) 230-5422.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Spoke with Todd at Arrow Racing, the inventer of this upgrade. I am sooooooo stoked to be hopefully driving my Gen 3 with Gen 5 performance. Is this a dream come true? Dropped another grand on a fuel pump today. This is O.K. Dyno sheet coming soon. Sorry, from what I understand this is a CAR upgrade not a TRUCK upgrade. If you have a TRUCK call Sean Roe (904) 230-5422.

1. The inventor of THAT version of it maybe.
2. You don't need a fuel pump upgrade for this package or ones like it- dont waste your time or money, you will end up with a LESS reliable package by doing so.
3. Do your homework, and dont jump on board what someone tells you on a whim.

 

[ssjcreeper]

The Mopar package does look nice and I considered it as well. Just to be clear, there's a variety of options if you want a heads/cam package. Here's a couple recent posts on N/A builds. Good luck with your project, and welcome to the forum.

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/652307-643whp-606wtq-Greg-Good-Heads-Cam-with-A-amp-C-Tune

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/648544-Gen-III-to-Gen-IV-Engine-Build

Doug

 

[Upgraded]

The 650 HP upgrade package requires a minimum fuel pressure of 55 PSI. The Gen 3 fuel pump puts out 45 PSI. The GEN 4 fuel pump puts out 58 PSI.
Sure it might be possible for the GEN 3 pump to delever enough fuel, but the pressure will be too low for the injectors to work properly.

You are saying the GEN 4 fuel pump is less reliable than the Gen 3 fuel pump, what do you base that on?

 

[Upgraded]

Those look like killer builds. The only reason I am doing the Mopar upgrade is that I can do it my garage by myself only with the help of a case or beer and the radio blasting. It also looks cool when my neighbors come over to see what I am doing.

 

[Viper Specialty]

The 650 HP upgrade package requires a minimum fuel pressure of 55 PSI. The Gen 3 fuel pump puts out 45 PSI. The GEN 4 fuel pump puts out 58 PSI.
Sure it might be possible for the GEN 3 pump to delever enough fuel, but the pressure will be too low for the injectors to work properly.

You are saying the GEN 4 fuel pump is less reliable than the Gen 3 fuel pump, what do you base that on?

Incorrect. The Gen-3 fuel pump puts out the same 55-58 PSI as the Gen-4.

I never said the Gen-4 fuel pump was unreliable- it would be just as reliable as a Gen-3, or Gen-2 pump of course. I was talking about the aftermarket fuel systems and all of the nonsense and sacrifice that goes along with 99.999% of them. I didn't think you had meant a Gen-4 drop in, but the same applies- unneeded expense.

 

[Upgraded]

O.K. the GEN 3 pump can deliver 55-58 PSI at any flow rate? The biggest pump in the world can't deliver 55-58 PSI at unlimited flow. This is basic physics.

I spoke the Mopar at SEMA and I was told this pump needs to be changed for the full 650 HP. Even their product display says the fuel pump module and exhaust should be replaced, for the full 650HP. I reconfirmed with with Mopar, Arrow Racing and Viper Parts and they told me the same. This is a small investment to make sure the project turns out. Please examine the attached picture for the requirements of this upgrade. Why would anyone go against this unless less than the full 650HP desired?

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Kevan]

There is NO DIFFERENCE between the car engines and the truck engines.
They were both built by the same folks, in the same area, inside CAAP.

Variances:
- Throttle body cable connection (extra attachment posts for cruise and kickdown cable (for auto trans in the QCs))
- Oil pan shape/size. Trucks have a much different frame than the cars.
- ECM.
That's it.
Everything else in/on the engine is the same.

But don't believe me.
Believe Dick Winkles....the inventor of the Viper engine.

 

[Viper Specialty]

O.K. the GEN 3 pump can deliver 55-58 PSI at any flow rate? The biggest pump in the world can't deliver 55-58 PSI at unlimited flow. This is basic physics.

I spoke the Mopar at SEMA and I was told this pump needs to be changed for the full 650 HP. Even their product display says the fuel pump module and exhaust should be replaced, for the full 650HP. I reconfirmed with with Mopar, Arrow Racing and Viper Parts and they told me the same. This is a small investment to make sure the project turns out. Please examine the attached picture for the requirements of this upgrade. Why would anyone go against this unless less than the full 650HP desired?

You must be registered for see images attach

Upgraded: You are free to do as you want of course, but you are wasting your money. Take it from someone who knows a lot more about what you are doing/talking about than pretty much anyone else on this topic, and has zero to gain from anything you are doing. I hate to step on toes out of turn, and I don't know what they actually told you versus how you interpreted it... but what you are stating as a requirement is not even remotely close to such a thing, at least not at that power level.

Mopar, Arrow, and VPA are all misinformed, or just trying to make an up-sale if they told you it was "required". There are MANY N/A Gen-3 cars running stock fuel systems making FAR more than 650 horsepower- there is even one referenced IN THIS THREAD. That VS-X700 above certainly does have a Gen-3 fuel pump in it, and it just made a touch over 700, and was running safely rich doing it. Never mind the dozens of other head/cam Gen-2 and 3 cars running in that same horsepower range on stock fuel systems.

That being said, nowhere did I or anyone ever say that the Gen-3 pump flows an unlimited amount of fuel- but it certainly can deliver enough fuel to retain that pressure at the aforementioned horsepower levels. Gen-3 fuel pumps can deliver upwards of 800 crank horsepower worth of fuel for a normally aspirated engine. Forced induction demands are significantly higher, and therefore not comparable, but that was never the topic of conversation.

Notice in your picture: AVAILABLE ADDITIONAL MOPAR PRODUCTS. It does NOT say "required" anywhere on there- it just says it is available.

For what its worth... that Gen-4 fuel pump cost could be more appropriately spent on a proper camshaft, professional services & advice, proper tuning, or a host of other more useful options.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Dan, although you surely are correct, the instructions specify that the pump is required and to any non experienced builder that would indicate that it is needed for the installation, most normal customers will not question that, thanks for explaining your side of it. We recently did the same kit and did what the instructions said because the customer wanted the "correct" setup according to the required parts in the instructions. BTW we made 74whp gain using the Belanger headers and Corsa cat-back. baseline whp was 455whp on our dyno and ending was 529whp (593 crank for us) if anyone is interested. Torque was up after 4050 rpm and peaked at a gain of 26rwt.

 

[FastMatt]

Dan, although you surely are correct, the instructions specify that the pump is required and to any non experienced builder that would indicate that it is needed for the installation, most normal customers will not question that, thanks for explaining your side of it. We recently did the same kit and did what the instructions said because the customer wanted the "correct" setup according to the required parts in the instructions. BTW we made 74whp gain using the Belanger headers and Corsa cat-back. baseline whp was 455whp on our dyno and ending was 529whp (593 crank for us) if anyone is interested. Torque was up after 4050 rpm and peaked at a gain of 26rwt.

so the Mopar "650" hp pkg puts 529 hp to the wheels?.... week....

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

so the Mopar "650" hp pkg puts 529 hp to the wheels?.... week....

The description clearly states that the package can make up to 650 hp if you include all of the extra components like the cam, it is misleading if you don't read the entire description.

 

[FastMatt]

The description clearly states that the package can make up to 650 hp if you include all of the extra components like the cam, it is misleading if you don't read the entire description.

Ya thats misleading thats for sure, on that logic they should have advertised the gen 2 viper as a 1500hp car, then in the small print say if you add a built motor, heads, cam, and twin turbos to it.....

But I would still like to see a gen 3 with this Mopar Pkg with the heads ported and shaved and a Roe 710 cam... can we say 700 rwhp all motor?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Ya thats misleading thats for sure, on that logic they should have advertised the gen 2 viper as a 1500hp car, then in the small print say if you add a built motor, heads, cam, and twin turbos to it.....

Haha, that sounds like something I would say... or did say probably, LOL!

 

[TowDawg]

I agree with Matt that I would like to see baseline vs this kit with the ROE 710.

 

[Upgraded]

It it a fact that the gen 3 fuel pump can make upto 700HP. Look at MY dyno sheet with the Roe set-up in the beginning of this post. At WOT my fuel pressure drops to less than 20 PSI. From what I am told, the GEN 4 injectors need a higher pressure to atomize the fuel as designed. Why do cars use injectors instead of solenoid valves? Do injectors atomize better at higher or lower pressures? It is also a fact that the GEN 4 fuel pump has a higher capacity than the GEN 3 fuel pump. Look at the specs. Maybe you can get by with a GEN 3 pump but to me as a owner of three Viper powered vehicles, I am about excess and $1,000.00 means nothing to me. UPGRADED is going to do as UPGRADED wants and not cut corners. Maybe I am waisting money. So here are three tips guaranteed to save you money: 1) Put 87 octane gas in your tank, 2 Ride your tires until the are bald, 3) Change your oil every 30K miles. Sounds stupid right. Thats how you people sound to me, recomending me to cut corners and go against Mopar, Arrow and Viper Parts recomendations. If everyone thinks that Mopar, Arrow Racing and Viper Parts are so misinformed and dishonest and and getting so upset about these feelings then maybe everyone needs to join a mellow form like: http://www.kia-forums.com/.

 

[Viper Specialty]

First of all, as I stated in my post, FORCED INDUCTION IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT BALL GAME. FI requires much more fuel/Injector as a result of the pressure differential between the rails and manifold, needing to be tuned richer, on top of having blower losses to account for in that application. It is not even remotely comparable to an N/A application. That... and it is even assuming your fuel system was built and running correctly or was even in good condition to start with.

I think you need to seriously take a hard look at who some of the people are in this thread that you are trying to "convince". You are arguing the side of someone trying to sell you something who are not builders and tuners to begin with, and using factual data from an unrelated application to back it up. To make matters worse, you are actively arguing against people who do this every day, and have 1000x the factual data that you have access to, and the experience of doing exactly what you are talking about... awe hell, SIX DAYS AGO to back it up.

You also might want to check and see "who is in bed with who" when taking advice from certain entities. Manufacturers, brands, and vendors all involved with each other make for an interesting back-slapping mix of opinions and marketing... thats all I am saying.

Speaking of other websites, there are a few other Viper sites that you should be visiting as well. I am sure they would love to have you... or have it out with you... whichever comes first.

You need to realize there is a difference between "cutting a corner" and "buying a bridge". If you knew the first thing about me personally, you would never make a comment that could by any stretch of the imagination involve me and cutting a corner in the same sentence. You need to calm down and listen to what is being said, and take the time to understand it. If you are comfortable dropping an extra $1000 for nothing, then go for it. Its not like it will hurt anything. But that also doesnt change the fact that you just spent the same money that a cam and timing set would have cost to go along with that package.

In the end, whatever works for you.

 

[Upgraded]

The proof will be in my dyno pull. Mopar says it will be 640Hp at the crank. According to them the cam will only add 10hp and my mirror shakes too much for me anyway. If you think you are Psychic and know anything about me, then go have fun with yourself. I will post the dyno sheet in about three weeks.

 

[Camfab]

There is NO DIFFERENCE between the car engines and the truck engines.
They were both built by the same folks, in the same area, inside CAAP.

Variances:
- Throttle body cable connection (extra attachment posts for cruise and kickdown cable (for auto trans in the QCs))
- Oil pan shape/size. Trucks have a much different frame than the cars.
- ECM.
That's it.
Everything else in/on the engine is the same.

But don't believe me.
Believe Dick Winkles....the inventor of the Viper engine.

Maybe I'm losing my mind, but I swear I remember the block being cast iron?

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

It happens to all of us.

The only difference I've ever seen between the SRT-10 truck engine and the 03-04 Gen 3 Viper engine was the oil pan and pickup. The truck had a rear sump oil pan with a long tubular pickup.

 

[Camfab]

Thanks Greg,

 

[Viper Specialty]

The proof will be in my dyno pull. Mopar says it will be 640Hp at the crank. According to them the cam will only add 10hp and my mirror shakes too much for me anyway. If you think you are Psychic and know anything about me, then go have fun with yourself. I will post the dyno sheet in about three weeks.

I will be waiting for that dyno pull of 560+ at the wheels. Only trouble is, for you to "prove" anything we have been talking about, you should be posting about how you ran it with a Gen-3 fuel pump, and ran out of fuel. Since I know that won't happen, you can post anything you would like, but it doesn't prove anything with regard to what we were conversing about. Everything else is off topic, including what numbers you put down.

Also... I don't think anyone has to look much further than the cam comment to know where you are coming from on this one. For starters, you aren't going to make 640 on a stock Gen-3 Cam, I don't care what Mopar has told you, and every kit installed thus far proves it. I would have thought you would pick up on the fact that the exact package you are going to install has been done TWICE in this thread, and it comes up 40-50 HP shy of 640, and also a FULL package has been done which makes a lot more than 640. Also, I would bet that even that little Mopar cam would make a good bit more than a 10HP gain, if you were crazy enough to actually pay that kind of money for a cam that is so close to stock it is laughable.

At the end of the day, you are being sold by a sales team who has no interest in going out on a limb to do the job right when they can sell you a dream and just use convenient phrases like "Up To" and "May Require" to keep any and all accountability on your side of the deal. You are ignoring invaluable advice from people who actually know the reality of it.

Good luck, and don't say we didn't tell you so.

 

[Upgraded]

You are right, I will never run my Mopar 650 hp upgrade with the Gen 3 pump due the chance of burning my new big shiny beautiful valves because of being lean. I hope that is not what has happined to the people that have gone against Mopar's recommendations. Burn valves deliver less HP. My iphone is now giving now me a 0-60 in 3.38 sec. This upgrade is great improvement in exceleration and sound. As much as I would like to put my car on the dyno Monday, I am rushing to Europe and will be back in about 2 to 3 weeks.

According to my calculations the rear wheel HP should be 640HP*.85= 544HP. How do you come up with 560+?
Your calculator seems to be broken.

 

[Viper Specialty]

You are right, I will never run my Mopar 650 hp upgrade with the Gen 3 pump due the chance of burning my new big shiny beautiful valves because of being lean. I hope that is not what has happined to the people that have gone against Mopar's recommendations. Burn valves deliver less HP. My iphone is now giving now me a 0-60 in 3.38 sec. This upgrade is great improvement in exceleration and sound. As much as I would like to put my car on the dyno Monday, I am rushing to Europe and will be back in about 2 to 3 weeks.

According to my calculations the rear wheel HP should be 640HP*.85= 544HP. How do you come up with 560+?
Your calculator seems to be broken.

Actually, a WideBand sensor and the appropriate software will tell you a lot more about whether or not you are running lean than any internet information, guesswork, or fuel pump change ever could. I hope you don't think that by changing the fuel pump, you automatically have no danger of running lean. Sorry to tell you, but you could have a swimming pool pump for a fuel pump, and with an incorrect tune, you will still be running lean. The same can be said for your Gen-3 fuel pump analogies... seeing as people who have builds bigger than yours are tested on a regular basis with these same industry standard testing systems, and show no signs of any fuel supply problems, why exactly do you seem to think it is a problem... other than someone "telling" you that?

And actually, your calculator is broken. Vipers are closer to 13% drivetrain loss, not 15%.

Again... I feel I need to make the comment; Figure out who you are talking to.

 

[Upgraded]

I think I am talking to someone that gets upset about 1K. All my rides have an: Auto Meter 4379 and have many failures with these units. UPGRADED will not go against the developer of my ride for a $200.00 readout!

 

[Viper Specialty]

High prices is relative to the money that comes in.

Are you still trying to allude at how much money you make...?

I think I am talking to someone that gets upset about 1K. All my rides have an: Auto Meter 4379 and have many failures with these units. UPGRADED will not go against the developer of my ride for a $200.00 readout!

I am trying pretty hard to keep my composure on this one. 1K? Hahaha, believe me, expensive parts don't scare me. You are talking to a person who probably deals with more custom 1-off stupid expensive Viper parts than anyone else in the country, and doesn't understand the meaning of the word "cheap".

Perhaps you should invest in some better wideband equipment if you don't trust it. The rest of the world has access to decent equipment that is trouble free... but what do they know, right? You are a baller after all... at least according to you anyway. I hope you know how ridiculous you sound as you bounce back and forth from "Baller businessman" to "Cheap Date".

 

[Tom Sessions]

I hope you get the numbers you are looking for. You have alot to backup with the posts you have made. If not I bet you will vanish from this site as fast as Lance did after he Schooled that Vette.

 

[01sapphirebob]

I hope you get the numbers you are looking for. You have alot to backup with the posts you have made. If not I bet you will vanish from this site as fast as Lance did after he Schooled that Vette.

 

[01sapphirebob]

UPGRADED will not go against the developer of my ride for a $200.00 readout!

Upgraded is starting to sound like Jimmy from Seinfeld or Bob Dole.

 

[Upgraded]

How old r y?

I am 52 and have been building engines since 19. You are right with I could be doing deals instead of waisting my time here.
It sounds like you very mad at Lance like you are @ UPGRADED.
Who is Lance? Ants in you pants. Ha Ha
The only reason I am here is because of the 20% discount.
100% business man.
My Mama told me not to talk to strangers.