New Flash Programmer or VEC3?

[steponz]

Are there things that the VEC3 can't do??? Would there be a benefit to getting both???

From reading all these greats threads by DY... I really want the VEC3...

Also can most of the VEC3 information work with a GEN3 setup???

I have a paxton setup with some issues, but when they are all ironed out.. I would really like to take control of my own tuning... And this looks like the place to do it...

Another quick question is do most of you run 2 seperate A/F setups???

Will the VEC3 handle that?

Thanks alot..... I must say the threads are really great... keep up the good work....

Joe

 

[Joseph Dell]

Are there things that the VEC3 can't do??? Would there be a benefit to getting both???

From reading all these greats threads by DY... I really want the VEC3...

Also can most of the VEC3 information work with a GEN3 setup???

I have a paxton setup with some issues, but when they are all ironed out.. I would really like to take control of my own tuning... And this looks like the place to do it...

Another quick question is do most of you run 2 seperate A/F setups???

Will the VEC3 handle that?

Thanks alot..... I must say the threads are really great... keep up the good work....

Joe

Since that's about the closest i'm going to get to an apology, here's the info you want:

The VEC2/3 can modify timing curves, fuel curves, activation of a secondary something like a shift light, water/****, additional fuel, fuel pumps on a paxton set-up (hint... that would allow you to remove the split second), NOS, or something else. a single device.

The reflash lets you change when the radiator fans kick on, what happens at _other_ intervals with the engine, as well as some of the same modifications that the VEC will let you do.

But the VEC has been around a looooong time and it is a piggy-back computer. the reflash retains everything about the stocker.

Oh yeah... the VEC lets you perform individual cylinder fuel trims... I don't know if the reflash tool will do that.

the reflash tool (other than sending in your PCM) isn't out yet.

But the VEC has some challenges too. it has a learning curve. Get yourself the instructions or the software in advance and play with it. if you can. that will give you a comfort level for it or not...

good luck!

JD

 

[steponz]

Why thank you for your post Joe... I really appreciate it

Can you hook up the VEC3 to a laptop to pull all data like Boost, RPM, A/F?

I want to redo my electronic setup with a custom car pc... and would like to put my gauges on the screen that I put in..
This way you don't have to worry about mounting guages anywhere and you get a really cool graphical gauge setup....

I am a software developer, so I could also create my own setup.. But I thought it would be much easier and less time-consuming to piggy off something....

Joe, What do you use for your car??? Probably an AEM???

Also I will be shipping my car down to Doug to get my issues worked out... Going to have him look at it and also do my plugs and wires and tune..
The only problem is I am waiting for my rims to come from IForged.....
I have 3 bad tires......Funny thing is I have 4 new PS2's sitting in my garage... There just the the 19/20 setup.
They should be in the end of next week... So I will likely put them on and ship the car down....

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Viper Specialty]

Both setups have advantages, it mainly depends on what you are doing. For an NA setup, the VEC-3 has NO advantages over the flash tool, and in fact many, many, many disadvantages. The only disadvantage to the flash tool is that since it is based off of the OEM MAP, it cannot handle boost- YET. a simple re-write of the software with a new 1 or 2 bar MAP sensor and it could easily handle boost.

The best thing going right now is a flash tool AND a VEC-3 for a boosted car. the engine can be completely re-mapped with the flash tool, and the ONLY thing that the VEC-3 will be doing is pulling basic timing and adding fuel in one demension only, IE boost. The VEC-3 has many disadvantages when it comes to open/closed loop transitions, injector scaling, etc... all of which the flash tool can take care of at the source.

Just as an example, I have a car here right now running 96lb Peak and Hold injectors.... with the FACTORY PCM controlling them in their entirety... these are BIG injectors which the VEC's are not capable of controlling without a host of issues coming into play. There is a VEC-3 in the system, but it does not handle trims, scaling, or anything other than simply adding fuel and pulling timing- period.

It all boils down to this: Short of Boost Control and Traction Control, the Flash software has just about every capability as an AEM, but remains OBD-2 compliant, and there is NO wiring. Its capabilities will be expanded in the future as new software is added, and you can expect that boost control may be in the future. It is probable that the new flash software and a racelogic unit will replace the AEM's in their entirety when the software matures. There are a multitude of spare pins and unused tables in the PCM, once they are mapped, it is likely we will have some "blank tables" in the software for adding various functions based on other tables already contained in the PCM programming.

I have personally dealt with all of these systems, and I can honestly say, the flash software is the ultimate answer to the question, it just hasnt been completely finished yet. If you have any specific questions regarding the flash software and its capabilities, please let me know. I am a dealer for SCT, and have DCX (Viper) flash tuning capability, so I can tell you exactly what it can and cant do. I have also been helping SCT mature this software as fast as possible, as it appears I may be pushing this software to its limits first.

 

[steponz]

Thanks for the info.... Good post...

What about the logging support and is there any PC control of it????

Can you also hook up an a/f to it??

Joe

 

[Viper Specialty]

Thanks for the info.... Good post...

What about the logging support and is there any PC control of it????

Joe

While it is not out YET, it will be soon. The flash tool is basically a flash tool, DTC Scanner, and a "portal" for a laptop to access the PCM for logging purposes. There is a cable that *will* run between the flash tool and a laptop for the fastest logging (and most complete) available. The software is already available for GM and Ford, Dodge is next.

 

[steponz]

I see.... Thats what I would want.... Now I have heard that mostly tuners are able to program these controllers... Is the ability to tuner ourselves and option down the road???

Thanks,

joe

 

[Viper Specialty]

I see.... Thats what I would want.... Now I have heard that mostly tuners are able to program these controllers... Is the ability to tuner ourselves and option down the road???

Thanks,

joe

The Dealer DCX Viper Software is only for dealers, and is extremely expensive in the scheme of things. There is also a Pro Racer package which allows you use of similar software, but it is locked to one vehicle and processor code only. If you would like a quote, PM me. I may not be able to sell it to you yet, but I can find out tomorrow if you would like. In reality, it may just be easier to allow a dealer to handle the tunes for you, as the software is EXTREMELY complicated, and quite overwhelming to a beginner.

In the future, us dealer/tuners can write you a tune, and allow a selection of end-user adjustable options through the flash tool itself at our discretion. It wont have quite the resolution of our actual software, but some end user adjustability. For example, you could change your fan temps, idle speed, various points of timing, etc.

 

[steponz]

I would probably be good with the programmer... Would definitely like the quote...
Is the Pro Racer package available now?

Can you PM the price?

Joe

 

[Viper Specialty]

PM'd you.

I will check on availability tomorrow.

 

[ViperTony]

Both setups have advantages, it mainly depends on what you are doing. For an NA setup, the VEC-3 has NO advantages over the flash tool, and in fact many, many, many disadvantages.

Dan, i'm beginning to realize this. I don't have many complaints with the Vec3, it certainly has helped me lean out my AFR when it became rich after my mild upgrades. I purchased the vec3 because I thought (back then) that I'd be going Roe but not sure anymore. I'd like to stay N.A. One disadvantage I have with the Vec3 is that while its great for open loop operations and logging it can't perform the closed-loop tuning i'd like such as having the fans come sooner with a cooler tstat, better throttle response, etc. Not the Vec3's fault but its limited to open loop operations. For my use the Vec3 seems overkill.

I'm going to the dyno next week to get a baseline for my mods. If I send you my dyno sheet and list of mods can you create an SCT tune based on that info for me? I'm contemplating purchasing the SCT.

Thanks
- Tony

 

[Viper Specialty]

Dan, i'm beginning to realize this. I don't have many complaints with the Vec3, it certainly has helped me lean out my AFR when it became rich after my mild upgrades. I purchased the vec3 because I thought (back then) that I'd be going Roe but not sure anymore. I'd like to stay N.A. One disadvantage I have with the Vec3 is that while its great for open loop operations and logging it can't perform the closed-loop tuning i'd like such as having the fans come sooner with a cooler tstat, better throttle response, etc. Not the Vec3's fault but its limited to open loop operations. For my use the Vec3 seems overkill.

I'm going to the dyno next week to get a baseline for my mods. If I send you my dyno sheet and list of mods can you create an SCT tune based on that info for me? I'm contemplating purchasing the SCT.

Thanks
- Tony

Hello Tony,

What you are experiencing is the exact reason that the VEC-3 cannot solve many problems. Unfortunately, the system is very limited in some aspects.... important ones at that.

Yes, a mod-list and dyno sheet would go a LONG way towards making a tune for your car. In your case, I am assuming you would probably only want one nice tune for the car? If so, I would take the info from you and write three similar, albeit one slightly more aggressive than the next tunes for you to try. I would charge you in advance for 3 tunes, but knowing that you plan on only using one, would allow you to send the unit back after you pick the best one for your needs to have two tunes erased and a credit issued for the other two tunes. If you opt to keep all three or try some more tunes, then a credit just wont be issued. A little over-complicated, but it could cut down on shipping the unit around greatly.

I can also do things such as update your processor code in your computer, for example if you have a 708 Cam and Forged pistons in an 01 car running an 01 computer, I can effectively make the PCM operate as a 99 computer for the baseline.

 

[steponz]

Final GTS,

Any update?

Would that also be the price with your help tuning?

Joe

 

[Viper Specialty]

Final GTS,

Any update?

Would that also be the price with your help tuning?

Joe

Unfortunately the person I talked to did not know anything about DCX, and my main contact was out of the office. He will be back tomorrow.

The Pro-Racer package includes access to the "pro racer" forum, they can help you with many tuning issues there, albeit not Viper specific. The purchase price does not include tunes from me, though I am sure we could work something out.

 

[Dan Cragin]

I also agree that flash programming is the best approach to tuning. "Piggy Back" systems such as the VEC 3, Unichip and many others are limited in what they do. They add complexity to the system and basically are just one more thing that can go wrong.

When we developed the ability to program the production controller several years ago, there was no going back. As stated above, piggyback systems are most useful in forced induction systems, but this could change in the future.

The SCT hand held programmers are definately more user friendly. No more shipping computers to be programmed or needing to by a new one, you can do it yourself. Unfortunatley the SCT software is limited and does have a few bugs, luckily in our case we are able to make all the changes the SCT software cannot and still give you the most comprehensive calibrations.

With many new tuning options coming to the market, many owners will be able to improve the performance and drivabilty of thier vehicles without the hassle it required in the past.

Dan Cragin
DC Performance Inc
SCT dealer
310-841-6996

 

[Viper Specialty]

Final GTS,

Any update?

Would that also be the price with your help tuning?

Joe

Hi Joe,

PM'd you.

The Pro-Racer software is available, although the price I quoted was incorrect.

For anyone else curious, I have added it to my website. It is under Engine>Supporting Systems>Engine Management

www.ViperSpecialtyPerformance.com