Pissed at Lingenfelter

[aries]

So some of you know I purchased a SRT10 motor from Ligenfelter that they had on Ebay. The specs were as follows:

Dodge Viper aluminum V10 block - blueprinted
Moldex 4340 billet steel crankshaft - 4.250" stroke
Oliver 4340 billet steel connecting rods 6.250"
Lingenfelter billet steel main caps / ARP main studs
Mahle forged aluminum pistons 4.030" diameter
Total Seal file fit piston rings
Lingenfelter CNC ported Viper cylinder heads
2.02 Stainless steel one piece intake valves
1.60 Inconnel one piece exhaust valves
Competition Cams custom roller camshaft for turbo application
Competition Cams dual valve springs, titanium retainers, 10 degree valve retainer locks
Competition Cams HD .080" wall pushrods
T&D aluminum shaft mount roller rocker arms - 1.7 ratio

8.2: 1 compression
Machine Work
Crankshaft journals are align honed
Cylinders are bored on a Rottler F65 3 axis CNC
Cylinders are honed on a Rottler HP6 with torque plates
Block deck surfaces machined on a Rottle F65 3 axis CNC
Blocks are hand de-burred, bolt holes are checked & re-tapped
Lingenfelter CNC ported cylinder heads
Precision multi angle valve job
CC checking chamber size for correct compression
Surfacing to insure deck flatness
Set spring height, retainer to guide clearance & assembly
All internal parts are de-burred, hand washed and inspected Pistons, pins and connecting rods are pin fit to specification Crankshafts are computer balanced to within .5 grams or less, oil holes chamfered, bearing surfaces micro polished

Lingenfelter blueprint and assembly
Includes verification of LPE specifications of: cylinder bore diameter, cylinder wall taper, piston diameter, deck height of block, bearing clearances, crankshaft end play, piston to valve clearance, bolt torque specifications, lifter bore diameter, piston skirt taper, piston to wall clearance, piston ring end gap, rod side clearance, valve adjustment, degreeing the camshaft, correct oil pressure during priming.

So I have a gut feeling that I felt I should have the heads off to look and make sure all is well with this motor before installing it in my car. Howard from AR Fabrication calls me and says it's a really good thing that I di. Here's the email I get from AR Fabrication:

Joe,

As per your request we removed the engine from the car and removed the heads off. I have attached the pictures of the engine as of last night. We are glad that you decided to have the heads removed and the engine inspected before we performed the final installation and tuning.

Here is what we found:

Several cylinders have light to heavy particulate material at 6 and 7 O’clock resulting from the lack of or poor deburring of the spark plug holes prior to assembly of the engine.

We also noticed that when removing the ARP head studs the lack of any lubrication on the threads(but a small amount of red Loctite at the top of the threads) in the block resulting in difficult removal that can cause galling of the aluminum material in the block. Several of the stud holes were not thoroughly cleaned and ferrous and non-ferrous material particulate has been found in several holes. The tops of the head studs were lubricated with an assembly lube not recommended by ARP, the recommended lubrication from ARP is 30wt Oil or their supplied Moly assembly lube. Without using the proper lubrication the recommended torque spec could be out of range. UNLESS, LPE has analysis data of the lubrication used to support its usage, this was an incorrect procedure according to the ARP procedure.

We will continue to tear-down the rest of the motor today and call and email with all results. We will then do a final inspection(including re-measuring all clearances) and properly ULTRASONICALLY cleaning all parts before doing a complete re-assembly of the motor for installation.

Thank you,

Howard

So I talked to Tim Dyer at Lingenfelter and he basically tells me that everything was ok when it left his shop and I guess he thinks I or AR Fabrication must have pored metal shavings into the motor. Just goes to show you that you can't even trust the "reputable" shops. BTW, AR Fabrication sent me pics that I can't post here because I've used all my "space".

 

[Flash1034]

That *****!

Flash

 

[bluesrt]

 

[gb66gth]

Is there anybody that is 100% reliable and honest in this biz.?!

 

[aries]

Is there anybody that is 100% reliable and honest in this biz.?!

Tell me about it. It *****. I sent Lingenfelter the pics and he says "well we have one guy that builds our motors and that stuff wasn't in it when it shipped." Does he honestly think I would put metal shavings in a motor that I paid 5 figures for? Why would I do that? What would I gain from doing that? I'm just glad that I did have the motor taken apart so that I didn't start the motor with that crap in there because it would have done some damage.

 

[CCBrian]

So far Dan at DC Performance has been with me, as has Woodhouse.

 

[Bandit3]

Always best to do it yourself

 

[plumcrazy]

YES, there ARE a few good, reliable,honrst tuners.....maybe not lingenfelter though...

 

[vp97]

Maybe there was material trapped in the coolant passages of the heads and when your tech removed the heads, it dropped into the cylinders. Either way, it's pretty ****ty of LPE to blow you off.

 

[aries]

Maybe there was material trapped in the coolant passages of the heads and when your tech removed the heads, it dropped into the cylinders. Either way, it's pretty ****ty of LPE to blow you off.

Unfortunatley that's not the case. When I called later he said he's found material in the block and stuff. Regardless, the motor is now completley apart and has to be cleaned properly, at my expense of course.

 

[ulllose]

What would they have said if it blew up???????? Maybe you should have ran it

 

[Warfang]

Unfortunatley that's not the case. When I called later he said he's found material in the block and stuff. Regardless, the motor is now completley apart and has to be cleaned properly, at my expense of course.

Not to sound more cyncial than you... but could it be your current tech making this stuff up? Seems like he has something to gain as well. Hard to tell who's lying in these cases.

 

[aries]

Not to sound more cyncial than you... but could it be your current tech making this stuff up? Seems like he has something to gain as well. Hard to tell who's lying in these cases.

Definatley not the case here. I was the one who suggested taking the engine apart. Howard at AR Fabrication didn't really want to do it but said it might be a good idea and would do it if I wanted him to. He was content on installing the engine as it was shipped because it had come from a "reputable" company. Howard and AR Fabrication have been very straight forward and honest throughout this whole process.

 

[bmw2nv2000]

Man I am sorry this happened to you bud. I hope you get some type of retribution in the end.

 

[vp97]

Can you post pics of what you found in the motor?

 

[mike007]

Not to sound more cyncial than you... but could it be your current tech making this stuff up? Seems like he has something to gain as well. Hard to tell who's lying in these cases.

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[HI-NOS-Viper]

Send me the pics and I will post them for you if you need someone to. Sorry to hear about your troubles.

 

[Warfang]

Definatley not the case here. I was the one who suggested taking the engine apart. Howard at AR Fabrication didn't really want to do it but said it might be a good idea and would do it if I wanted him to. He was content on installing the engine as it was shipped because it had come from a "reputable" company. Howard and AR Fabrication have been very straight forward and honest throughout this whole process.

I think your belief is most likely what happened... was just bringing up another possibility. Hope it works out for you.

 

[FastZilla]

So which is it now? Henesfelter or Lingenssey - I can't keep up

Sorry to hear this happened. I think the stud lube is splitting hairs but the metal "particles" found is completely unacceptable unless you're dealing with a Chevy 350....oh wait, Lingenfelter, Corvette, oops....

I'd post pics. At least you'll inform the "Viper" guys and save someone else. Metal lodged in a journal, lodged between the ring/cylinder, making a few revs around the crank via the crank bearing....

I'm sure the Vette guys will now say how much the better Vette is because it can digest unlimited amounts of metal shavings...

 

[speedracervr4]

Ligenfelter has a shop on ebay?

 

[aries]

Here is the reply I received from Tim Dyer from Lingenfelter.

Hi Joe,

I looked at the pictures and passed them onto Graham in our engineering department. He had the same question I did, why after the engine had been installed in the vehicle would you have them remove it and pull the heads? I am also not sure why they want to re-measure all the clearances unless there was a problem with oil pressure or a strange noise when they started the engine?

We have been in the engine building business for years and the engine assembler that built your engine has been here for over twenty years. This is not his first Viper engine to build and since you bought that one he has finished 2 more 540 CID V10’s that are both running in cars with now with no issues. Steve would not have incorrectly installed the head studs into the block and I am not sure why they would have removed the studs? You don’t take head studs out to remove the heads that’s one advantage to using them you can just remove the nuts and save wear and tear on the block.

From your pictures I do agree that the two small aluminum flakes in the cylinders look like they may have been produced when the spark plugs were installed but we do not feel that this would have caused any problem in the operation of the engine, if that’s the only debris found in the engine. Had they been steel filings then you would more likely had damage.

One thing we use here at LPE is a bore scope that lets you stick an small digital camera inside the spark plug hole and examine the inside of the engine with out taking it apart. This would have been a better way to look inside the cylinders without removing the engine and heads.

Please forward any other information you get and we can try to help you with explanations.

Thank you,

Tim Dyer

Sales Manager
Lingenfelter Performance Engineering

 

[99 R/T 10]

They sell stuff on ebay. To hear this come from Lingenfelter *****. After John died, their shop ethics must have gone to ****

 

[aries]

They sell stuff on ebay. To hear this come from Lingenfelter *****. After John died, their shop ethics must have gone to ****

That's exactly what I've heard from a number of people. Also, pics will be posted soon, thanks to HI-NOS-Viper

 

[aries]

Thanks for the pics HI-NOS-Viper

 

[HI-NOS-Viper]

Here are the pictures you sent me aries

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[bluesrt]

 

[vipah]

Did the engine come with a warranty?

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

Judging from the last pic... the hone appears to be unusually smooth.

This engine is built for a boosted application I presume (8.2:1 compression)?

 

[vipah]

I just bought a laptop from the Dell store on Ebay. When it arrived I wanted to make sure that the processor was exactly what I purchased, so i took i apart.

Good thing I did! When i opened it up i notices some small plastic shavings around the processor and fan area. If these had clogged the fan the whole processor could have overheated. I also noticed that they used an inferior thermal grease on the cooling fins. The screws also appeared to be more than a few years old, and could have been used before based on my observations.

I wrote a note to Dell and they said that the small particles would have likely blown through the fan upon start up and never caused a problem. They also said that they have been building quality laptops for years and use the same grease and screws on all their products and have not had any problems.

Hmmm.

I guess my point is that if you had fired up the motor you would probably be a happy camper. i think the little debris in the cylinders would have blown right out and never been an issue. You can get your ******* in a bunch about the studs and grease.

Now you have an expensive problem on your hands.

Did AR remove the plugs? If so, could they have introduced the debris?

Good luck, but I think you created a monster.

 

[aries]

I just bought a laptop from the Dell store on Ebay. When it arrived I wanted to make sure that the processor was exactly what I purchased, so i took i apart.

Good thing I did! When i opened it up i notices some small plastic shavings around the processor and fan area. If these had clogged the fan the whole processor could have overheated. I also noticed that they used an inferior thermal grease on the cooling fins. The screws also appeared to be more than a few years old, and could have been used before based on my observations.

I wrote a note to Dell and they said that the small particles would have likely blown through the fan upon start up and never caused a problem. They also said that they have been building quality laptops for years and use the same grease and screws on all their products and have not had any problems.

Hmmm.

I guess my point is that if you had fired up the motor you would probably be a happy camper. i think the little debris in the cylinders would have blown right out and never been an issue. You can get your ******* in a bunch about the studs and grease.

Now you have an expensive problem on your hands.

Did AR remove the plugs? If so, could they have introduced the debris?

Good luck, but I think you created a monster.

Problem is that it wasn't just the small pieces in the pics. There was a fine metallic powder/dust in the cylinders and in the engine. Also, the camshaft has score marks on the journals indicating it was used!!!! The bottom line is I expect a professional, clean engine with no debris in it for the price I paid for this engine. I shouldn't have to take the chance with debris being in it and hope it "should be ok" to start and run it.