Project: Bullet-proof V-10

[BOTTLEFED]

I'm getting ready for my winter-build project. I have decided that 588hp isn't enough But my motor was rebuilt by Arrow with cast pistons (started out forged but probably a warranty procedure). So I must go forged before I can start adding more boost. Here is my current engine setup:
stock 8.0L (488cid) V-10
Roe supercharger @ 6.5psi
water-**** injection
JM stage3 CNC ported heads with upgraded valves and springs
Arrow (H&S) 1.7 roller rockers
stock cam
stock bottom end
Fidanza flywheel and stock clutch
Borla headers and exhaust
stock intake with K&N filters
stock fuel system with upgraded fuel injectors (green tops - 550cc) and a BAP
tuning done with VEC3

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Now for the plan.
I want to up the boost on the Roe to 10psi and finish installing my nitrous system.
I would like to do it as safely and reliably as I can afford. I would say the max I will be running is 700rwhp and 700rwtq, and 850-900rwhp and 900+rwtq on the bottle.

First, of course, I will need to build up the bottom end.
A set of Diamond forged was a no-brainer. No rebalancing needed and easy drop-in replacement. But then I came across a great deal on a set of slightly used forged pistons and rods. The seller thought the pistons were Diamonds since they were in a Diamond box, but they said CP on them. He didn't know what brand the rods were. So I bought them anyway.

I received these this weekend.

You must be registered for see images attach

I did some searching and it turns out the pistons are CP pistons and the rods are Manley steel rods

As far as I know they are stock replacements (bore & stroke), but I'm sure they are not the same weight, so I will have to have the assembly balanced.

So how much would a new set of rings be for this?

 

[plumcrazy]

IIRC the rings were about 250-300, its the labor that kills ya.
gonna need to replace bearings too (cheap too IIRC)
gasket set
etc......

the "might as well's" will add up. do yourself a favor and do it right once and be done with it. trust me, it aint fun the other way...lol

PS: check with CP to find out if that score you found (cp instead of diamond) was a really big score. maybe they are boost ready pistons ? where the ring lands are moved.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

I'm also thinking of going with ARP studs on the main caps.
I have a brand new 708 cam and stock lifters from Tator to install.
I have a new Luk clutch, but I'm thinking I may need more when the N2O comes on.
I'm going to do the throwout bearing and slave cylinder while I'm in there.
I will need to upgrade the fuel system, but I haven't decided how much I will need (or afford).

I will update this thread as I go and post pics of the rebuild.

 

[CitySnake]

Sounds like you're building with all the right components....but you should get "bulletproof" out of your expectations. Where you're going there's just no such thing.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

IIRC the rings were about 250-300, its the labor that kills ya.
gonna need to replace bearings too (cheap too IIRC)
gasket set
etc......

the "might as well's" will add up. do yourself a favor and do it right once and be done with it. trust me, it aint fun the other way...lol

PS: check with CP to find out if that score you found (cp instead of diamond) was a really big score. maybe they are boost ready pistons ? where the ring lands are moved.

What rings would you recommend?
I'll be doing the labor since I have rebuilt motors before and I've had three Viper motors apart now
I have found a place that can balance the parts. I will check out the cylinders and, hopefully they will just need some honing.
I have almost a complete gasket set from Chuck as well.

I shouldn't need to do the main bearings just to put in studs. From what I've read, the main bearings are ungodly expensive.

 

[plumcrazy]

I'm also thinking of going with ARP studs on the main caps.
smart move
I have a brand new 708 cam and stock lifters from Tator to install.
there are MUCH better cams than the 708, call greg good. its a lot of work to have a basic OEM cam in it.
I have a new Luk clutch, but I'm thinking I may need more when the N2O comes on.
mine held perfect with no2 at 856rwtq for about 100 bottles and i still have a luk on same power.
I'm going to do the throwout bearing and slave cylinder while I'm in there.
I will need to upgrade the fuel system, but I haven't decided how much I will need (or afford). I have 2 walbros for sale cheap if you want them. id hold them for you if yu want them for sure. you're good with me..

I will update this thread as I go and post pics of the rebuild.

keep us posted and like city said and i have proven 2 times so far....there is no such thing as bullet proof....lol


.

 

[plumcrazy]

What rings would you recommend?
I'll be doing the labor since I have rebuilt motors before and I've had three Viper motors apart now
I have found a place that can balance the parts. I will check out the cylinders and, hopefully they will just need some honing.
I have almost a complete gasket set from Chuck as well.

I shouldn't need to do the main bearings just to put in studs. From what I've read, the main bearings are ungodly expensive.

i had a set of total seal rings recently that didnt seat. my tuner of choice has seen that happen a few times with that brand.

if i can find my build sheet, i'll email it to ya for reference on prices

 

[BOTTLEFED]

I will need to upgrade the fuel system, but I haven't decided how much I will need (or afford). I have 2 walbros for sale cheap if you want them. id hold them for you if yu want them for sure. you're good with me..

I saw those. I have been debating on going that route, but I don't have the $$ to go all SS fuel lines and return. Is there a way to just add 2 pumps and keep the stock returnless system?

keep us posted and like city said and i have proven 2 times so far....there is no such thing as bullet proof....lol.

haha! I understand completely. I'm on my third motor and I don't want to have to take it out again after this, but I know its inevitable

 

[FATHERFORD]

Is there a way to just add 2 pumps and keep the stock returnless system?

How big are the factory lines? I don't think the stock lines will flow enough fuel for that power range.

 

[plumcrazy]

ask 1TONY1, he used the OE line as a return i think on his roe. I use it as a return in mine as well

 

[BOTTLEFED]

How big are the factory lines? I don't think the stock lines will flow enough fuel for that power range.

I know the stock lines can flow enough for a 10# Roe, but adding the wet N2O shot onto that may starve the system for fuel.

The water/**** injection adds fuel as well. If all else fails, I will just need to inject more W/M into the intake with the N2O.
Did I just say fails and W/M in the same sentence.. crap! I just jinxed myself

 

[FATHERFORD]

Do we have 3/8" or 1/2" line for fuel? If stock fuel lines are supporting 700rwhp I would think it would have to be bigger then 3/8"

 

[britospeed]

Hellfire rings are the best for FI.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Hellfire rings are the best for FI.

where do I get them and how much?

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Something I forgot to mention,
I'm also getting the piston tops ceramicoated for heat dissipation and the skirts coated for anti-friction as well.

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

Before you have the skirts coated........ better have the machine shop check what size they are. The coating will add ~ .002" to the diameter. You wouldn't want to run the piston to wall clearance too tight....you'll gall some pistons.

The Hellfire rings are good, but are kinda ******* bores. Total Seal has their TNT ring, which is the same exact ring. I like to use Total Seals stainless ring coated with chromium nitride, but you really to run those on a block that has been honed with a torque plate. What Total Seal will likely recommend is a plasma moly top ring.

 

[vipzilla]

How big are the factory lines? I don't think the stock lines will flow enough fuel for that power range.

yes you can add 2 external pumps then come on under boost and yes stock lines will work

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Before you have the skirts coated........ better have the machine shop check what size they are. The coating will add ~ .002" to the diameter. You wouldn't want to run the piston to wall clearance too tight....you'll gall some pistons.

I was assuming since Viper Specialty sells these with or without the coating I would be OK.
https://www.viperspecialtyperforman...d=169&osCsid=483336ff9e2a3f2ca9f37fe04d43461b
Maybe I'll call Dan and see what he thinks.

The Hellfire rings are good, but are kinda ******* bores. Total Seal has their TNT ring, which is the same exact ring, but they coat it with titanium nitride, but you really to run those on a block that has honed with a torque plate. What Total Seal will likely recommend a plasma moly top ring.

What brand of rings comes with CP pistons usually?
I was just thinking of a light honing with a ball-hone to clean up the walls. There shouldn't be any damage to the walls since the motor is in good shape.
What about just using the rings that came with the pistons? Since they were only used for less than a couple thousand miles, they should be OK, right? I would just need to re-gap them for my cylinders.

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

You need to get a good machine shop involved in this. Have them measure the pistons and figure the piston to wall clearance.

Did these pistons come from Daniel? If so he can tell exactly what they are.

I told you wrong on the rings. Total Seal does not coat the TNT ring to my knowledge. I looked through some invoices and saw that I have been buying coated *stainless* rings, and it it was chromium nitride. It handles a lot of temperature, and has a slightly porous surface so it holds oil better than most top rings. Because of this it lives longer in FI cars that are set up with somewhat rich tunes that have more fuel wash that leaner N/A tunes. No way you should run these unless you have the block honed with a plate (which you should do).

Don't use the old rings. Rings are cheap.

 

[Joseph Dell]

What I don't quite follow: you are going to build up a motor but keep the ROE on there? The ROE w/ a 10lb pulley has been shown to greatly increase intake air temps due to it overspinning the blower. If you are going to build out the bottom end, why not build something that has a shot of exceeding ~650rwhp?

Not trying to start a roe vs. world war, but the ROE is the limitation on your build. If that were a paxton, you could run 850rwhp reliably w/o the bottle.

Just askin'...

 

[Russ M]

What Joseph said all that work and you are going to put a restriction plate on it.

Far as the factory fuel line goes its 5/16 on its best day, good luck making power reliably on that.

 

[SquadX]

What rings would you recommend?
I'll be doing the labor since I have rebuilt motors before and I've had three Viper motors apart now
I have found a place that can balance the parts. I will check out the cylinders and, hopefully they will just need some honing.
I have almost a complete gasket set from Chuck as well.

I shouldn't need to do the main bearings just to put in studs. From what I've read, the main bearings are ungodly expensive.

Main and rod bearings are expensive if u don't shop around.
When I rebuilt my motor I got clevite main and rod bearing for $275. The seller is on eBay. Brand new,sealed. Might as well replace them considering the cost. One of the beatings u need to get the race version. I forget if it's the rod or mains but no difference in price.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

You need to get a good machine shop involved in this. Have them measure the pistons and figure the piston to wall clearance.

Did these pistons come from Daniel? If so he can tell exactly what they are.

I told you wrong on the rings. Total Seal does not coat the TNT ring to my knowledge. I looked through some invoices and saw that I have been buying coated *stainless* rings, and it it was chromium nitride. It handles a lot of temperature, and has a slightly porous surface so it holds oil better than most top rings. Because of this it lives longer in FI cars that are set up with somewhat rich tunes that have more fuel wash that leaner N/A tunes. No way you should run these unless you have the block honed with a plate (which you should do).

Don't use the old rings. Rings are cheap.

thanks for the info Greg
no, I didn't buy these pistons from Dan
I think they may have come from Chuck

the motor is still in the car so it will be hard to measure anything yet

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

The stock bore is 4.00".......so *yes*.....you CAN measure the piston and get an accurate idea of the piston to wall clearance.


If you decide to have the block honed with a plate the bores will end up ~.002" larger than they are now (the worst cylinders move about that much).

 

[BOTTLEFED]

What I don't quite follow: you are going to build up a motor but keep the ROE on there? The ROE w/ a 10lb pulley has been shown to greatly increase intake air temps due to it overspinning the blower. If you are going to build out the bottom end, why not build something that has a shot of exceeding ~650rwhp?

Not trying to start a roe vs. world war, but the ROE is the limitation on your build. If that were a paxton, you could run 850rwhp reliably w/o the bottle.

Just askin'...

Thank you Joseph and Russ,
but I'm not looking for information on problems with the Roe. I understand the limits of the Roe supercharger. I'm not looking to upgrade to a Paxton (anymore). The funny thing is, if I were upgrading to a Paxton, there would be people telling me to just go TT. It never ends. It is easy for you to tell me how to spend my money (or the money I don't have). I'm not trying to squeeze every last horsepower out of my engine. I'm just trying to build a relatively strong motor to handle some extra power - the power that I will see with a Roe and some nitrous. The Roe is not my limitation, it is my reason for building, and it is what I have to work with, and I'm fine with that.

Maybe it won't be the perfect motor, and maybe I'll have to cut a few corners to stay in budget. It's alright. The stock motor can handle a lot of power, so I think upgrading some of the parts will only add to that strength.

I know some will say, "do it right, or don't do it at all." But I'm doing it for some extra piece of mind and because I can. My original plan was just some drop-in Diamonds so I would have forged pistons. I don't think upgrading a few other parts will hurt anything while I'm at it. But a full on high-dollar race motor is not what I need or want.

I appreciate all the comments and suggestions on what parts to use and things to check while I'm doing this rebuild; I will take them all in and make my decision on what I feel I need to do and where my money will go.
However, I'm not asking for opinions on what my plans for the motor are. If you don't like the Roe or nitrous, this is not the thread to debate it. This thread is for motor rebuilding and info on good engine parts. I hope this thread will help others to understand rebuilding these motors and learn some from those that have done it.
I also hope it reveals that these motors are not some exotic piece of engineering that should be feared. It's just an internal combustion engine like any other. It just hasn't been discussed, and the preferred parts and what is available is reasonably unknown.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

The stock bore is 4.00".......so *yes*.....you CAN measure the piston and get an accurate idea of the piston to wall clearance.


If you decide to have the block honed with a plate the bores will end up ~.002" larger than they are now (the worst cylinders move about that much).

You're right lol!
so when I add the coating to the skirts, they will fit perfect after the honing

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Main and rod bearings are expensive if u don't shop around.
When I rebuilt my motor I got clevite main and rod bearing for $275. The seller is on eBay. Brand new,sealed. Might as well replace them considering the cost. One of the beatings u need to get the race version. I forget if it's the rod or mains but no difference in price.

cool, thanks!
Those should work perfectly
Better than the $1K for mains that Dodge wants

 

[Greg Good Cylinder Heads]

You're right lol!
so when I add the coating to the skirts, they will fit perfect after the honing

Depends. CP likes to run some of their pistons too tight IMO. Depending on who you talk to over there....you may hear as tight as .0035". You can call back and someone else there may tell you .0055". Had it happen. A forged piston on a power-adder engine will usually gall when set up at .0035". .005" is as tight as I would run one. .006" is safer.

MS2253HX is the Clevite main bearing you want. It has .001" extra clearance over stock. The stock engines are very tight IMO on main bearing clearance. The stock clearance rod bearings are fine.

Mains : Clevite MS2253HX

Rods: H series -http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLE-CB481HN/

P series- Clevite CB481P Clevite 77 High-Performance Bearings

The HN series bearing above is narrowed, and has a little less eccentricity than the P bearing. The P bearing is a little wider. They're both good. Take your pic.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Hey BF,
when you get the motor out, send the intake off the Roe S/C to Greg Good to modify for better flow. It will make a difference in power