Roe VS Paxton

[redlineviper]

Many people have been waiting for a long time for roe to produce a supercharger for the srt vipers. I am one of them. I called them about six months ago checking up on progress. They mentioned it would be aprox 6 months till it was ready. I contacted them last week and they said they have been working on the kit a lot lately and are getting very close. The kit will be priced about the same as existing kits and is being made to work with the 08 hood. With a moddest 5 psi on a stock engine it makes about 585 rwhp. What do many of the people "in the know" think about about going with the roe vs paxton? And yes, I do know max hp is more with the paxton and average hp and torque gain is more with the roe.

Thanks

 

[GONABITE]

You say stock engine. Was that HP number with stock exhaust? Although the Roe will produce less peak HP, im almost willing to bet it will produce quicker 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times.

 

[mjorgensen Woodhouse]

Drivability kept stock quality, Paxton. Low end torque Roe.

 

[redlineviper]

You say stock engine. Was that HP number with stock exhaust? Although the Roe will produce less peak HP, im almost willing to bet it will produce quicker 0-60 times and 1/4 mile times.

Yes, stock exhaust, about 610-620 with full headers and cat back. Yea, average hp sometimes has a lot more influence than peak hp.

 

[redlineviper]

Drivability kept stock quality, Paxton. Low end torque Roe.

Is there drivability issues with a roe? Hard starting, surging, stalling, etc? Or just not as smooth of power delivery?

 

[Kenneth Krieger]

I had a Roe on my 94 and loved it.....I have a Paxton on my 05 and love it.......the Paxton does better on fuel, and you don't have to change the hood, so in essence you save $3,000 with the added cost of the hood and paint, etc. What has been previously said is true.....low end torque with the Roe.......I don't need any more low end torque since I already have 3:55's and much more power than needed to be able to put to the ground.

 

[redlineviper]

Here is what I am trying to decide. For about 84-90 k I can get a 08 coupe that performs awesome and improves a lot with just headers and cat back. Or with the poor economy thus creating a soft market I can get a 06 coupe with 2-3k miles for 58-62. With the 06 I could get a fun 600rwhp weekend warrior for about 70k. With the 08 it would be aprox 90k but its not all about hp. I understand there are a # of improvemnets to the 08. 20k diff, I know this matter has been discussed too many times before but still is hard to know which way to go and whether the roe would make some people go with the 06.

 

[black mamba1]

Here is what I am trying to decide. For about 84-90 k I can get a 08 coupe that performs awesome and improves a lot with just headers and cat back. Or with the poor economy thus creating a soft market I can get a 06 coupe with 2-3k miles for 58-62. With the 06 I could get a fun 600rwhp weekend warrior for about 70k. With the 08 it would be aprox 90k but its not all about hp. I understand there are a # of improvemnets to the 08. 20k diff, I know this matter has been discussed too many times before but still is hard to know which way to go and whether the roe would make some people go with the 06.

Go with the 08 for many reasons, better tranny, better electronics, better tires, more n/a power, etc. There are guys out there that have run stock 08's against Paxtons Vipers, and surprisingly the cars are very close in performance. There was a guy at Saratoga this past Saturday w/ a 1000 hp Twin Turbo Viper, and a new 08. He is selling his Twin Turbo and keeping the 08. Again, he said the 08 performs close to the TT due to traction problems of the TT and the fact that the TT acts "squirrelly" at times. Now, understand that if you line up a 750 hp Paxton or 1000 hp TT against a stock 08 and run the cars 0-190 mph, the Paxton and the TT would beat the 08, but from 0-140 it would be close between the Paxton and the 08. And the 08 would beat the TT 0-100 mph unless the TT had major tire and suspension upgrades. If you go on to add Stop Tech rotors, headers, cam, free flow exhaust, K&N's, lighter wheels and tires to the 08 you decrease rotating mass and throw on some 3:33's, you will have a monster that will beat both FI cars, the ZR1, and practically everything shy of a Bugatti all the way to 160 mph in my view.

You can add headers and cam alaone to the 08 and have almost 700 hp (over 600 rwhp) and have a car that is lighter and quicker than most Paxtons out there. And much quicker than a slightly quicker than a TT to 140 mph (again unless the TT has major tire and suspension upgrades like Motons). The 08 will be a better track car all around due to running cooler than the FI cars and not having the extra 90 lbs in the nose of the car. As far as th e Roe goes, I would prefer the power coming on later in the power band like a Paxton than having all that torque at 2000 rpm like the Roe. SRT's are torquey enough as is. Having said that, there are no Roe SRT's out there yet to really get an idea of how the car will run.

Also, buyin g the 08 helps car the Viper brand strong. Get the 08. And order it from Tators Dodge!

 

[Nader]

Not sure any of you saw the recent engineers forum last wednesday but they said that many engine components on the 08 are virtually maxed out at 600hp. They went as far to say they dont recommend any horsepower increases on the 08 without at least a piston change.

I quote:

"The 2008 engine is a highly tuned and highly stressed engine. We left few stones unturned in the development or calibration process. Achieving 600 HP required that many of the parts be stressed to their limits and the pistons are one of the most highly stressed components in the engine. If the customer modifies the engine to increase the output by any significant amount (more than just say headers, i.e. supercharger, turbo, NOS), a quality forged piston would be a good idea. We don’t currently offer a replacement piston but many of the aftermarket suppliers could probably offer a good replacement part. Follow their recommendations for fit. Also be careful to make any adjustments for balance if the weight is much different than the stock piston. Don't forget to use a good engine builder and make sure the calibration matches the modifications!"

I think an 03-06 with a suspension change, quiaffe, and blower would be better overall. Yes the new tranny is better but quite frankly the 06 tranny is able to handle tons of power.

Go with the 08 for many reasons, better tranny, better electronics, better tires, more n/a power, etc. There are guys out there that have run stock 08's against Paxtons Vipers, and surprisingly the cars are very close in performance. There was a guy at Saratoga this past Saturday w/ a 1000 hp Twin Turbo Viper, and a new 08. He is selling his Twin Turbo and keeping the 08. Again, he said the 08 performs close to the TT due to traction problems of the TT and the fact that the TT acts "squirrelly" at times. Now, understand that if you line up a 750 hp Paxton or 1000 hp TT against a stock 08 and run the cars 0-190 mph, the Paxton and the TT would beat the 08, but from 0-140 it would be close between the Paxton and the 08. And the 08 would beat the TT 0-100 mph unless the TT had major tire and suspension upgrades. If you go on to add Stop Tech rotors, headers, cam, free flow exhaust, K&N's, lighter wheels and tires to the 08 you decrease rotating mass and throw on some 3:33's, you will have a monster that will beat both FI cars, the ZR1, and practically everything shy of a Bugatti all the way to 160 mph in my view.

You can add headers and cam alaone to the 08 and have almost 700 hp (over 600 rwhp) and have a car that is lighter and quicker than most Paxtons out there. And much quicker than a slightly quicker than a TT to 140 mph (again unless the TT has major tire and suspension upgrades like Motons). The 08 will be a better track car all around due to running cooler than the FI cars and not having the extra 90 lbs in the nose of the car. As far as th e Roe goes, I would prefer the power coming on later in the power band like a Paxton than having all that torque at 2000 rpm like the Roe. SRT's are torquey enough as is. Having said that, there are no Roe SRT's out there yet to really get an idea of how the car will run.

Also, buyin g the 08 helps car the Viper brand strong. Get the 08. And order it from Tators Dodge!

 

[black mamba1]

Not sure any of you saw the recent engineers forum last wednesday but they said that many engine components on the 08 are virtually maxed out at 600hp. They went as far to say they dont recommend any horsepower increases on the 08 without at least a piston change.

I quote:

"The 2008 engine is a highly tuned and highly stressed engine. We left few stones unturned in the development or calibration process. Achieving 600 HP required that many of the parts be stressed to their limits and the pistons are one of the most highly stressed components in the engine. If the customer modifies the engine to increase the output by any significant amount (more than just say headers, i.e. supercharger, turbo, NOS), a quality forged piston would be a good idea. We don’t currently offer a replacement piston but many of the aftermarket suppliers could probably offer a good replacement part. Follow their recommendations for fit. Also be careful to make any adjustments for balance if the weight is much different than the stock piston. Don't forget to use a good engine builder and make sure the calibration matches the modifications!"

I think an 03-06 with a suspension change, quiaffe, and blower would be better overall. Yes the new tranny is better but quite frankly the 06 tranny is able to handle tons of power.

Good point. Yeah, I would go with the 08 and Manley rods and CP Pistons. And if you are going to blow the 06, I would recommend a piston and rod upgrade as well, especially if you go north of 675 rwhp. I think you should upgrade with either the 08 or the 06, but you will be faster and quicker with the 08 due to the power coming in quicker and no heat soak and the car being 90 lbs lighter.

And order your 08 from Tators Dodge! Also, if the Roe is out by then, Tator will slap it on for you, tune it, and possibly dyno it too if you ask him to, that is if you settle on the 06.

 

[redlineviper]

Both very good and informative opinions. Black mamba, if I were to buy a 08, where should I go?

 

[RTTTTed]

I've owned 2 Roe cars and love them. I almost bought a 1000rwhp Paxton car. The woner said that the car had traction in 1st sometimes and woule hook in 2nd gear until the revs got high, but was OK for traction in 3rd. My 720rwhp car has ZERO traction in second and fishtails going into third for hundreds of feet. The only problem I've noticed with the Roe is that I have to drive at half throttle until 100+mph. The runcraps have no tration and my 598rwhp/644rwtq with runcraps had less traction than my 720rwhp PS1 equipped car. I drive in 6th gear on the highway and at 1200rpm have enough power to pass, etc. and get 20mpg. My car runs, starts and idles like it's stock.

Driving at 40mph in 4th gear (about 1200rpm) I thought I'd have traction - wrong! Rear tires lit up and I went out of control because the tires went 140mph instantly. Raced a Z06 from 50mph - gave him a 2 length head start, fishtailed behind him, passed him and shifted to 3rd ... fishtailed away from him like he was sitting still at over 100mph. Raced him from 50 mph in 4th gear. Had traction (sunny, warm day) and stayed even with him to 100mph. 800+ rwtq is mind-boggling power.

My conclusion is that don't buy a Roe unless you're very experienced with huge hp. The Paxton starts with stock hp and torque and builds power from midrange to 6K. The Roe is like Nitrous, step on the throttle and you'll have full power right from idle because of the massive torque. It feels like driving a n/a 1000 cubic inch motor. NOT FOR A BEGINNER.

I'm picking up a set of PS2s from JonB to find some traction. This car has more than the 600hp you'll have, but it's difficult learning to drive using half throttle instead of driving with full throttle. Although I never expected to say this, "You can have too much power." I'll be doing some road/track racing during the next 2 months and if I still feel I have too much power I'll switch to the 8# pulley. Since my car has gone 10.5@139mph on PS1's I'm expecting great things from the PS2s.

 

[plumcrazy]

My conclusion is that don't buy a Roe unless you're very experienced with huge hp. The Paxton starts with stock hp and torque and builds power from midrange to 6K. The Roe is like Nitrous, step on the throttle and you'll have full power right from idle because of the massive torque. It feels like driving a n/a 1000 cubic inch motor. NOT FOR A BEGINNER.

there ya go.

 

[redlineviper]

Another great reply. Though I am not a newbie to 5-600 hp cars its nice to have responses covering that very important issue. My initial thought was that a Roe would be a more fun regular cruiser which is how we drive 95% of the time. Guess that's part of the beauty and drawback of the Paxton is that it doesn't do much unless you are putting the coals to her.

 

[black mamba1]

Another great reply. Though I am not a newbie to 5-600 hp cars its nice to have responses covering that very important issue. My initial thought was that a Roe would be a more fun regular cruiser which is how we drive 95% of the time. Guess that's part of the beauty and drawback of the Paxton is that it doesn't do much unless you are putting the coals to her.

I think it is the other way around. The Roe is balls-to-the-walls practically all the time. The Paxton is two cars in one. A daily driver up until you hit say 3500 rpm or so, then the monster comes out at the higher rpms. Those rpms build very fast, so you can still have plenty of fun with the Paxton.

I like both concepts...but unfortunately for the Gen 3's, there is only one concept available right now.

 

[adamlotus]

srt should of installed forged pistons from the get go.

 

[black mamba1]

srt should of installed forged pistons from the get go.

Yep...but the bean counters are too concerned about cost and bottom line. Plus, most pistons work fine if the car is kept stock. But most of us just dont keep em that way.

 

[RTTTTed]

I think it is the other way around. The Roe is balls-to-the-walls practically all the time. The Paxton is two cars in one. A daily driver up until you hit say 3500 rpm or so, then the monster comes out at the higher rpms. Those rpms build very fast, so you can still have plenty of fun with the Paxton.

I like both concepts...but unfortunately for the Gen 3's, there is only one concept available right now.

I disagree with the first part and wholeheartedly agree with the second part.

The Roe is "balls to the wall" if you give it full throttle. With the nearly flat POWER curve the Roe doesn't care too much what the rpms are at, but the throttle does control the power output. I put a lot of highway miles on my car and seldom drive fast. With the hood closed the only way to tell it's Roe supercharged is giving it throttle. Low speed operation of my car is perfect when you go easy on the gas.

The Paxton/TT power coming in at higher rpms is much easier to control and I recommend it for most people and think that a 750-800rwhp Paxton setup would go just as fast as a 600rwhp Roe.

Ted

 

[black mamba1]

Hmmm....so RTTTTT u r saying a 600 rwhp Roe will beat a 800 rwhp Paxton?

 

[plumcrazy]

on the street id be willing to prove ted wrong.....VERY wrong

 

[Nader]

I think it is the other way around. The Roe is balls-to-the-walls practically all the time. The Paxton is two cars in one. A daily driver up until you hit say 3500 rpm or so, then the monster comes out at the higher rpms. Those rpms build very fast, so you can still have plenty of fun with the Paxton.

I like both concepts...but unfortunately for the Gen 3's, there is only one concept available right now.

One concept available right now? I beg to differ!

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[RTTTTed]

Hmmm....so RTTTTT u r saying a 600 rwhp Roe will beat a 800 rwhp Paxton?

"think that a 750-800rwhp Paxton setup would go just as fast as a 600rwhp Roe" is what I wrote.

 

[RTTTTed]

One concept available right now? I beg to differ!

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Wow. Is that the large displacement blower? Looks good. If I had a Gen 3 that's the route I'd go.

Ted

 

[black mamba1]

Ok Ted, I misinterpreted what you meant. I know there are guys in here that can get stock Gen 1 and stock Gen 2 Vipers to run low 12.0 or even a high 11 b/c the way the cars are set up. Jamie Furman mentioned he could never get a stock Gen 3 to break into the 11's b/c of too much wheel spin. I think if you go Roe w/ a Gen 3 u are gonna need Kumho's and Unitrax. I see no way to keep a Roe Gen 3 pointed straight on stock run flats or even PS2's.

Bottom line is we basically need a Roe Gen 3 to hit the streets so we can stop speculating and line it up against a Gen 3 Paxton....and see what happens. Until we can do that, why bother to even go on and on about this?

We might as well be comparing the ACR against the ZR1.

 

[black mamba1]

One concept available right now? I beg to differ!

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Now thats what I'm talking about!

 

[RTTTTed]

I actually figured that the main difference in perfomance between 2&3 gens was the runcraps. After running a set of runcraps on my old 98GTS Roe 598rwhp Gen 2, then crashing in the rain ... rundcraps are dangerous. My 720rwhp 01 has similar traction problems to the 600hp with runcraps. I would not race supercharged runcrap equipped car on the street. I need a lot of room with my PS1s and can't imagine racing a high powered runcrap car. I bought a set of PS2s today even though my PS1s have 50 & 80% tread left. Hopefully, the PS2s will allow me some traction.

My car went 10.5@139mph on PS1s at the V10 nats. No roll bar so I'm not a regular track guy (nearest track is 350mi. from here). My 598rwhp GTS was written off and it was never tracked.

Ted

 

[HI-NOS-Viper]

And the GenIII Roe is going to be here VERY shortly. http://forums.viperclub.org/srt10-s...614298-2003-2006-supercharger-kit-update.html

 

[HI-NOS-Viper]

Wow. Is that the large displacement blower? Looks good. If I had a Gen 3 that's the route I'd go.

Ted

That is the truck kit.

 

[2MANYTOYS]

Another great reply. Though I am not a newbie to 5-600 hp cars its nice to have responses covering that very important issue. My initial thought was that a Roe would be a more fun regular cruiser which is how we drive 95% of the time. Guess that's part of the beauty and drawback of the Paxton is that it doesn't do much unless you are putting the coals to her.

Redlineviper
Do yourself a favor and talk to people whom have had both the Roe and Paxton. Some on here are just "assuming" based on what they preceive might be the case. They are flat wrong. Ask Johnny Bravo if his car is weak on the bottom. Ask Shelby3 if the Paxton car he rode in was weak on the bottom or anywhere in the rpm range. I've had both and can give you and honest real life account of the differences. There is no question the Roe is a nice blower but you will get bored with it and want more power in the near future. With the Roe your pretty much done unless you use nitrous. Also, as with anything, I'm sure the new Roe system will have some bugs to work out. I have been there and done that with the original system.

Go with the 06, send the car to Underground have them do their Paxton special and have Underground do the 522 stroker. You will then be done spending money unless you decide to move on to turbos.

 

[Simms]

If you are looking for 600-700rwhp and are on a budget, I think it is a toss up between the two. May even be more of a personal taste of how you like your power and torque to hit. Although I have never owned a Paxton setup, I have been in Paxton cars many times. The Roe definitely has that low end kick in the pants right off the bottom, but I will also say that the Paxton setup does well in the low rpm range as well. Two different feels, but I like both. If you can wait, try to get some seat time in both before you buy is my best advice. Many Gen3 guys are loving their Paxton setup, hang tight and see how the Roe guys feel, but I am sure Sean will keep them happy.

If you are going to want further power down the road, the Paxton route is the only way to go (minus TT). Just be prepared to upgrade the internals if you want to push the paxton past it's basic kit. You can't even compare the bolt on Roe to a Tuner Paxton setup.