Track testing for Motor Trend again. Kinda secret. All the new Vipers. Rock on.

[Makara]

Also consider the ZR1 is at the top of its game, the Z06 is as well. They have been out for years and have been tweaked endlessly. The Viper came out and had an amazing showing.

After 4 years of tweaking, you can bet the Gen V will be even more of a monster.

Cars tend to get better in progressive generations, otherwise, why change them? Why come out with a new car that is worse than the previous? Yes, they are also updated as the generation ages, but don't count on the vettes being slower than their last iteration. That is unsportscarlike.

 

[bluestreak]

The biggest part of the tweaking of the ZR1 has been in the tires. The rest is mostly fluff. You could take the original car, put it on MPSC vs the PS2's the ZR1 came on originally and it would be just as fast. The Z06 has benefited from better gearing from the ZR1 and the more compliant suspension as well, those are the differences. But an 06 Z06 is still not too far behind on MPSC, they are a mile better than those garbage goodyears the Z06 initially came on.

We will not see the same jump in performance during the next generations unless they find even faster tires. The cars will be faster, but not massively so. The increases will be more incremental over the course of the life cycle of the new cars.


That being said, kudos to SRT, this is a BIG accomplishment!!! I know they are chomping at the bit to get an equal tire on the car and go take their record back with a NON ACR vehicle. This bodes well for the ACR version when it does come out. Seems sure to be another world ******. I will certainly be in line for one!

 

[ViperSmith]

The biggest part of the tweaking of the ZR1 has been in the tires. The rest is mostly fluff. You could take the original car, put it on MPSC vs the PS2's the ZR1 came on originally and it would be just as fast. The Z06 has benefited from better gearing from the ZR1 and the more compliant suspension as well, those are the differences. But an 06 Z06 is still not too far behind on MPSC, they are a mile better than those garbage goodyears the Z06 initially came on.

We will not see the same jump in performance during the next generations unless they find even faster tires. The cars will be faster, but not massively so. The increases will be more incremental over the course of the life cycle of the new cars.


That being said, kudos to SRT, this is a BIG accomplishment!!! I know they are chomping at the bit to get an equal tire on the car and go take their record back with a NON ACR vehicle. This bodes well for the ACR version when it does come out. Seems sure to be another world ******. I will certainly be in line for one!

The Z06 had tremendous change from its introduction to this year, to say it didn't is preposterous

 

[Paul Hawker]

Perhaps another point of view.

What if SRT wanted to make the best performing sports car made in America.
What would be better than to take one of their pre-production prototypes, and match it up the the Baddest Ass Corvette they could find.
Determine what corners the Vette did better on, where in acceleration and braking they needed to improve. Basicaly a feeling out round.
Then take it back to the shop and make the improvements necessary to dominate their opponent.

Now they know they would take some forum heat if they lost, but nothing compared to not knowing where they needed to improve.

Who knows for sure, but it might have been a pretty smart move.

 

[HobokenViper]

Perhaps another point of view.

What if SRT wanted to make the best performing sports car made in America.
What would be better than to take one of their pre-production prototypes, and match it up the the Baddest Ass Corvette they could find.
Determine what corners the Vette did better on, where in acceleration and braking they needed to improve. Basicaly a feeling out round.
Then take it back to the shop and make the improvements necessary to dominate their opponent.

Now they know they would take some forum heat if they lost, but nothing compared to not knowing where they needed to improve.

Who knows for sure, but it might have been a pretty smart move.

Very good point and makes a lot of sense. I've thought this before as well, but most everyone on here was so shortsighted and quick to judge that they were not able to realize this was and is a strong possibility for what actually happened.

 

[bluestreak]

The Z06 had tremendous change from its introduction to this year, to say it didn't is preposterous

I stated the relevant changes when it comes to lapping a circuit. I don't see what's so hard to understand. The tires were by FAR the biggest factor in increased speed.

 

[Jack B]

Wasn't there a significant change in hp.

2001 - 385 HP
2013 - 505 hp

I stated the relevant changes when it comes to lapping a circuit. I don't see what's so hard to understand. The tires were by FAR the biggest factor in increased speed.

 

[Tenney]

Perhaps another point of view.

What if SRT wanted to make the best performing sports car made in America.
What would be better than to take one of their pre-production prototypes, and match it up the the Baddest Ass Corvette they could find.
Determine what corners the Vette did better on, where in acceleration and braking they needed to improve. Basicaly a feeling out round.
Then take it back to the shop and make the improvements necessary to dominate their opponent.

Now they know they would take some forum heat if they lost, but nothing compared to not knowing where they needed to improve.

Who knows for sure, but it might have been a pretty smart move.

Good point - though maybe best accomplished in private and outside the spotlight of a national magazine? And perhaps they had indeed done some prior benchmarking w/ZR1 - and were expecting a win (why else send a new car up against an old one?). But dig your concept, and would've been cool - and a bit of a coup - were SRT able to have convinced MT, once smoked, that they were involving the magazine in - and sharing with their readership - actual developmental benchmarking of a pre-production car. Would've been a decent a hook for the book. Though guessing they didn't have too tough a time peddling a few copies of that issue, anyhow ...

 

[SnakeBitten]

Perhaps another point of view.

What if SRT wanted to make the best performing sports car made in America.
What would be better than to take one of their pre-production prototypes, and match it up the the Baddest Ass Corvette they could find.
Determine what corners the Vette did better on, where in acceleration and braking they needed to improve. Basicaly a feeling out round.
Then take it back to the shop and make the improvements necessary to dominate their opponent.

Now they know they would take some forum heat if they lost, but nothing compared to not knowing where they needed to improve.

Who knows for sure, but it might have been a pretty smart move.

Ralph himself said they had a ZR1 similarly equiped for "2 years" during the Vipers development before giving it to the mags. Everything you said they already did for a few years. They had already developed the Viper before giving it to the mags. It just wasn't a very polished and proper job and it was exposed to the world by MT, which forced them to regroup and do a better job. I wont even get into the marketing fiasco that ensued.

I mean think about it. They developed this car in about 2+ years testing and retesting against a ZR1 for that length of time, then proceed to hype the car like crazy, then prematurely go prime time and MT undoes 2 years of there own development in just 1 afternoon. I cant see that being any ones plan. Randy made SRT's development team look suspect. In one afternoon. The Viper got better because of it. Makes me wonder why their own factory race drivers and development team couldnt figure out what Randy did in that afternoon. Sorry I just cant buy into your perspective. Just my opinion.

 

[SnakeBitten]

I stated the relevant changes when it comes to lapping a circuit. I don't see what's so hard to understand. The tires were by FAR the biggest factor in increased speed.

I'd say the CCB's, MR shocks, gear change added a whole lot for the tires to exploit too. You can have all those things but if you have garbage rubber vs your competition, its meaning less. So I see where you are coming from. You are not discounting the other improvements just stating that the tires are to most significant improvement overall. I would have to agree on that fact as tire to the pavement is where starts and ends sometimes. Just look at the Gen V vs the ZR1 for proof. All the obvious improvements of the Gen V suspension, lower weight etc but all that was at the mercy of the rain tires against the ZR1 superior MPSC's.

 

[Bobpantax]

What if the better results are primarily just from Randy having more seat time at LS in a car that he had no seat time in before the first test? Do we have any objective data to rebut this theory as opposed to the other theories espoused here? No doubt tires are important but so is more time in the same or almost identical car on the same track.

Ralph himself said they had a ZR1 similarly equiped for "2 years" during the Vipers development before giving it to the mags. Everything you said they already did for a few years. They had already developed the Viper before giving it to the mags. It just wasn't a very polished and proper job and it was exposed to the world by MT, which forced them to regroup and do a better job. I wont even get into the marketing fiasco that ensued.

I mean think about it. They developed this car in about 2+ years testing and retesting against a ZR1 for that length of time, then proceed to hype the car like crazy, then prematurely go prime time and MT undoes 2 years of there own development in just 1 afternoon. I cant see that being any ones plan. Randy made SRT's development team look suspect. In one afternoon. The Viper got better because of it. Makes me wonder why their own factory race drivers and development team couldnt figure out what Randy did in that afternoon. Sorry I just cant buy into your perspective. Just my opinion.

 

[bluestreak]

Wasn't there a significant change in hp.

2001 - 385 HP
2013 - 505 hp

We are talking now about the difference between the 06 Z06 and the 2011-2012 Z06 Carbon and Z07. All had the same hp. 385 was the first generation of the C5Z which then went to 405 in the latter years of the C5Z.

I'd say the CCB's, MR shocks, gear change added a whole lot for the tires to exploit too. You can have all those things but if you have garbage rubber vs your competition, its meaning less. So I see where you are coming from. You are not discounting the other improvements just stating that the tires are to most significant improvement overall. I would have to agree on that fact as tire to the pavement is where starts and ends sometimes. Just look at the Gen V vs the ZR1 for proof. All the obvious improvements of the Gen V suspension, lower weight etc but all that was at the mercy of the rain tires against the ZR1 superior MPSC's.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Look at the test times, like VIR (Z06 - 2:58 / Z07 - 2:53). MPSC are easily 4-5 seconds faster than those goodyears on a nearly 3 minute lap. Heck the PS2's are good for 2 seconds or more over those goodyears on a 1:30 lap. Michelin and Chevy did a test right before the Petite Lemans at Road Atlanta one year where they ran the Z06 on Goodyears and then on an aftermarket set of wheels with PS2's. Jan Magnussen was driving. I believe he did a 1:36 on Goodyears and a 1:32 on the PS2's. And MPSC are at least a couple of seconds faster than the PS2's. Now imagine that test on a 4 mile VIR grand track, the gap would be even bigger. Not even getting to MPSC's.

GM capitalized on the speed of the MPSC by adding more fluff to the car so they could increase their profit margin and take credit for the speed increase when the vast bulk of it was from the tires. The Magnetic shocks make the car slightly less twitchy, better on bumpy tracks and easier for average joe to drive. The gear changes mostly only benefit over 5th gear, and the CCB's are still not that great. The centennial edition that set the laguna lap time weighed in well over 3300 lbs, almost 200 lbs more than the 06. So some of that fluff comes with a penalty which negates the performance advantage.

 

[Alabaster Mamba]

Exactly. We are talking about the Z06 with Z07 package. Which includes MPSC, Magnetic Ride Control (MRC), cross drilled ceramic matrix rotors with 6 piston calipers up front, 4 piston calipers in the rear and Bosch ABS. Basically the ZR1 suspension with MPSC, carbon fiber and lighter than the ZR1. SO, in essence, this is not your avg Z06.

 

[SnakeBitten]

What if the better results are primarily just from Randy having more seat time at LS in a car that he had no seat time in before the first test? Do we have any objective data to rebut this theory as opposed to the other theories espoused here? No doubt tires are important but so is more time in the same or almost identical car on the same track.

To me just common sense rebuts the theory that SRT and its team of race drivers and engineers were incapable of developing the Viper fully in 2 years so they gave it to MT with their superior staff of drivers etc to refine the Viper in front of the whole worlds eyes. Come on man. If that is the case then the whole lot of them need to be replaced with MT's staff and Randy as the chief developmental driver. The old Dodge never needed to do this and Im pretty sure this was NOT SRT's intent. The upstart division just fumbled the ball there a bit but they recovered it.

As for it being more seat time sure that could be "part" of it. But to me its a pretty obvious fact the pre-production Vipers were just not fully developed by SRT. If it were just MT and Randy then Id say ok maybe you are right. But quite a few mags tested the Gen V against the ZR1 multiple times at Laguna and at Willow and they all said the same things. 2+ seconds slower, hard uncomfortable seats, not enough grip and brake fade, bad panel gaps etc. We can choose to ignore those fact so that SRT looks better under the microscope. But thats the funny thing about facts. They don't go away unless you choose to ignore them. Of course this is my opinion and I reserve the right to be wrong but it would be a hell of a crazy move to me if Paul is right.

 

[1BADGTS]

To me just common sense rebuts the theory that SRT and its team of race drivers and engineers were incapable of developing the Viper fully in 2 years so they gave it to MT with their superior staff of drivers etc to refine the Viper in front of the whole worlds eyes. Come on man. If that is the case then the whole lot of them need to be replaced with MT's staff and Randy as the chief developmental driver. The old Dodge never needed to do this and Im pretty sure this was NOT SRT's intent. The upstart division just fumbled the ball there a bit but they recovered it.

As for it being more seat time sure that could be "part" of it. But to me its a pretty obvious fact the pre-production Vipers were just not fully developed by SRT. If it were just MT and Randy then Id say ok maybe you are right. But quite a few mags tested the Gen V against the ZR1 multiple times at Laguna and at Willow and they all said the same things. 2+ seconds slower, hard uncomfortable seats, not enough grip and brake fade, bad panel gaps etc. We can choose to ignore those fact so that SRT looks better under the microscope. But thats the funny thing about facts. They don't go away unless you choose to ignore them. Of course this is my opinion and I reserve the right to be wrong but it would be a hell of a crazy move to me if Paul is right.

Exactly MT was given a finalized GEN 5 which was appropriated thru the MARGETING DEPT for use by all the mags .There is a 3-4 month time span from test to newstand .Developtment wise 90 plus percent of the GEN 5 was finished OVER A plus ago ( also once the engine is EPA CERTIFIYED SRT CAN NOT TOUCH A BOLT ON IT without having it recertifyed at a cost of millions )If you look at a car like the FGT i can tell you firsthand most of the major protoype testing was completed in LATE 03 for an 05 release date . In Nov 03 Ford was at Englishtown testing air fuel boost ratios .The prototype i was in essentially was the production FGT close to 1.5 years from the first ones arriving at dealers

 

[1BADGTS]

PS a far as having a writer for a mag that helps in R&D TESTING DEVELOPMENT ECT it does happen John Coletti and the current head of FORD SVT DEFINATELY used,use staff members of MUSCLE MUSTANG and Fast Ford as DRAG STRIP test experts(DRIVING CONSULTING ) in the developtment of cars like the FGT and current Mustang Cobra .The above consulting -testing being done years before the cars public intro NOT MONTHS like some on this forum believe

 

[SnakeBitten]

PS a far as having a writer for a mag that helps in R&D TESTING DEVELOPMENT ECT it does happen John Coletti and the current head of FORD SVT DEFINATELY used,use staff members of MUSCLE MUSTANG and Fast Ford as DRAG STRIP test experts(DRIVING CONSULTING ) in the developtment of cars like the FGT and current Mustang Cobra .The above consulting -testing being done years before the cars public intro NOT MONTHS like some on this forum believe

Yes that is true. We both agree that this is not what happened in the case of the Gen V though. I'm glad SRT took it in stride and improved the car. At this point its water under the bridge though and cant wait to see what they will do with the Viper in the near future. Things are definitely looking up after this last test.

 

[1BADGTS]

Yes that is true. We both agree that this is not what happened in the case of the Gen V though. I'm glad SRT took it in stride and improved the car. At this point its water under the bridge though and cant wait to see what they will do with the Viper in the near future. Things are definitely looking up after this last test.

Your right it definately didnt happen here the timeline is YEARS OFF .EVERY piece and test (driveability ,warranty ,govt mandates)must fall into budget .With the FGT COLETTI bought 2 Ferrarri 360s and Ford reverse engineered the on a LARGE BUDGET SRTs problem is creating the MONEY to put into the Viper program . Chevy can give the Vette almost unlimited technology because the costs are assumulated over the 50k vetts sold yearly (on an engine platform that sells hundreds of thousands per year) Dodge can not due this in turn your see chasis and motor carryover from the Gen 4

 

[bushido]

Your right it definately didnt happen here the timeline is YEARS OFF .EVERY piece and test (driveability ,warranty ,govt mandates)must fall into budget .With the FGT COLETTI bought 2 Ferrarri 360s and Ford reverse engineered the on a LARGE BUDGET SRTs problem is creating the MONEY to put into the Viper program . Chevy can give the Vette almost unlimited technology because the costs are assumulated over the 50k vetts sold yearly (on an engine platform that sells hundreds of thousands per year) Dodge can not due this in turn your see chasis and motor carryover from the Gen 4

Yes this,and Corvette has been in the game longer too..

 

[1BADGTS]

Yes this,and Corvette has been in the game longer too..

Decades longer .One thing i learned from the mag guys is NOTHING is done cheaply, easily or quickly in automotive terms .As i posted previously any change must not only fit within the budget but must pass in house DURABILITY and DRIVEABILITY tests (not to mention GOVT crash and EPA tests).Some of the driveabilty tests are interesting to say the least (.with the FGT, Ford hired a team of senior citizens couples to drive the prototypes from Dearborn to LA and back inturn documentating their opinions regarding comfort ride, fit ,features ect .No senior couple had ever driven a super car before and that what exactly what FORD was looking for .

 

[TrackAire]

Decades longer .One thing i learned from the mag guys is NOTHING is done cheaply, easily or quickly in automotive terms .As i posted previously any change must not only fit within the budget but must pass in house DURABILITY and DRIVEABILITY tests (not to mention GOVT crash and EPA tests).Some of the driveabilty tests are interesting to say the least (.with the FGT, Ford hired a team of senior citizens couples to drive the prototypes from Dearborn to LA and back inturn documentating their opinions regarding comfort ride, fit ,features ect .No senior couple had ever driven a super car before and that what exactly what FORD was looking for .

Interesting that Ford would hire seniors that will in all probability will never consider buying a Ford GT while SRT puts Ralph and Dick W in a Gen 5 to drive around the USA......I wonder which would give a better and immediate feedback? I really don't think a group of seniors would have come up with the Viper TA concept

Ford obviously cut a lot of corners on the Ford GT....like why a super car would come from the factory with no brake cooling intake ducts. Oh right, we're running low on cash so we'll put in fake brake ducts in the front grill instead and lets pay a bunch of seniors to drive around the around the country so we can get their opinions. Pretty hard to overheat the brakes on a Ford GT while driving 55.3 mph on the interstate

Seriously, some of the stuff the OEM's do is downright stupid, the bigger the OEM, usually the more idiotic it becomes. Some of the claims that they spend billions on a new vehicle development really don't pencil out....otherwise all engineers and designers would be making $500k plus a year. I really think that a lot of it is accounting smoke and mirrors and marketing B.S.

Also, I'd bet that the big three all have their own emissions labs that test and certify the vehicles in house and are responsible for reporting the end results to the EPA/CARB. A lot of this crash stuff is probably done with computer simulations before any car is actually put to test and physically destroyed. GM claimed it put the new Vette through something like 10 million miles of computer testing....what a bunch of marketing crap is that?

Say what you want about US companies, but when we have to, no other country, company or culture can compete with us when we want something done right now! After todays Laguna Seca results, I'd have to say Chrysler can react and does react the fastest compared to Ford and GM.

Cheers,
George

 

[1BADGTS]

George as it was explained to me the sen citizen driveability test was-is a Ford Corporate Mandate regardless of model.As far as development cost the only thing i can say is BOYS WILL BE BOYS WITH THEIR TOYS .The test i attended was one of approx 50.The tests primary purpose centered around durability, and air fuel ratio in relation to boost with a performance biproduct .(What i mean by performance biproduct =what will it take to get this car in the 10s on stock tires and is it feasable from all angles )The entire test could have been done at Dearborn the problem was Coletti needed a fast racetrack (Englishtown NJ being one of the fastest in the country )Ford rented Englishtown for two days and flew approx 20 employees (most were engineers some exec ) to NJ with a tract trailer full of parts .The GT prototype was hooked to a computer and literally destroyed while the engineers poured over the data. Cost wise this one test was easily 100k - alot of the develop cost definately revolves around playing with the new toy

 

[PeerBlock]

The Viper has always had its way with the vette in the past, if the Gen 5 doesn't do the same the C6 ZR1; SRT might as well pack up their stuff and move to Thailand.

GM has really upped their game with the Vette in recent years, bringing back the Z06 package a few years ago and then the ZR1. The C6 is old but it's also refined; I don't think the Viper is taking a back seat to the top-o-the-line Vette. They are very competitively matched and I think that when the C7 shows up it's going to continue.

Tires are critically important for performance even on the street. I'm not a track guy so uncertain if cups etc are the way to go in that regard but it seems very odd to offer a "track pack" that contains tires not ideally suited for that purpose, no?

The tires they mount on a "street legal" car have to meet certain standards set by the feds. These pesky standards mean that you get tires which are track-viable not track-optimal. But yeah, tires are the single most important element that determines how your car is going to perform in a given situation. That's true for any car.

Cars tend to get better in progressive generations, otherwise, why change them? Why come out with a new car that is worse than the previous? Yes, they are also updated as the generation ages, but don't count on the vettes being slower than their last iteration. That is unsportscarlike.

Depends on how you define "better". Next generations of a vehicle don't always improve upon performance; they can opt to improve comfort or add creature comforts improve the car's perceived value. I think the older vipers are more like weekend garage project that got sanctioned by Dodge. The new SRT Viper has the fit and finish one would expect with its price tag without compromising raw performance potential.

It's worth remembering that the Corvette team at GM has a bigger budget and more resources to play with than SRT has for the Viper at this time...despite this the Viper is matching if not surpassing the best GM has right now. I have no worries about seeing the tail lights of any C7 whether it's on the street or track.

 

[1BADGTS]

GM has really upped their game with the Vette in recent years, bringing back the Z06 package a few years ago and then the ZR1. The C6 is old but it's also refined; I don't think the Viper is taking a back seat to the top-o-the-line Vette. They are very competitively matched and I think that when the C7 shows up it's going to continue.



The tires they mount on a "street legal" car have to meet certain standards set by the feds. These pesky standards mean that you get tires which are track-viable not track-optimal. But yeah, tires are the single most important element that determines how your car is going to perform in a given situation. That's true for any car.



Depends on how you define "better". Next generations of a vehicle don't always improve upon performance; they can opt to improve comfort or add creature comforts improve the car's perceived value. I think the older vipers are more like weekend garage project that got sanctioned by Dodge. The new SRT Viper has the fit and finish one would expect with its price tag without compromising raw performance potential.

It's worth remembering that the Corvette team at GM has a bigger budget and more resources to play with than SRT has for the Viper at this time...despite this the Viper is matching if not surpassing the best GM has right now. I have no worries about seeing the tail lights of any C7 whether it's on the street or track.

The next GEN ZR-1 is going to be a handful .The current motor in the Mustang Cobra has passed EMISSIONS and DURABILITY testing in the 750 HP RANGE (should FORD choose to up the power level ) .From what i have been led to believe that new CHEVY ENGINE (direct inject )has the build technology to easily surpass that

 

[SilveRT8]

The next GEN ZR-1 is going to be a handful .The current motor in the Mustang Cobra has passed EMISSIONS and DURABILITY testing in the 750 HP RANGE (should FORD choose to up the power level ) .From what i have been led to believe that new CHEVY ENGINE (direct inject )has the build technology to easily surpass that

For my mental health, I hope Ford does not come back with a new FGT with 750 hp....as I would just go crazy over it

 

[madninjaskillz]

For my mental health, I hope Ford does not come back with a new FGT with 750 hp....as I would just go crazy over it

They absolutely could and absolutely should.

 

[VENOM V]

They absolutely could and absolutely should.

I agree they should make a Ford GT, and should do it right now. This is the Golden Era of American Super Cars. It won't last long before the environmentalists put an end to it!

 

[Bobpantax]

There have been rumors about the frequently discussed 6.2 liter supercharged SRT engine that appears to be near or at the final stage of its development ( based on rumor) that this engine is capable of producing HP at a level above the current Mustang GT500 and ZL1. The rumors make sense to me since my Challenger with a stock 6.1 liter engine, a 3.0 liter Techco supercharger on low boost and a custom calibration is puting out somewhere between 525 and 550 to the flywheel. So a 6.2 liter engine with forged internals and a twin screw supercharger with say 10 pounds of boost ( a stock Lightning came with ten pounds of boost) with a somewhat leaner calibration could potentially put out 700 HP or more. Hopefully, we will know sometime within the next 12 months.

 

[1BADGTS]

Fords company docterine at this time is to stay away from a 200k car (not politically correct thing to do right now from what iam told )AS far as a 750 HP supercharged Viper in the NEAR FUTURE IAM SURE EVERYONE THAT JUST PLUNKED DOWN 150 K PLUS TAX FOR THE 640 HP VERSION will absolutely positively love this news EXTREMELY DOUBTFUL ITS going to happen as you really are pushing the price envolupe where the 5s at now .If you dont increase the price for the blower car YOU KILL THE 640 HP VERSION .If you do increase the price you will not be able to sell the car anyway