I hate to think Chrysler/Fiat are just being cheap and do not want to invest in a new frame for the Viper? Wouldn't the car benefit from a longer wheelbase or alternatively, shorter body to reduce the amount of front and rear overhang? Has anyone asked Gilles about it? For street life, less overhang is good to reduce scraping incidents and improve straight line stability. Less overhang is good for track life as well. Does anyone have any info on this subject? Frankly, I was disappointed that Gen 5 recycled the same frame, with some improvements in rigidity.
Viper wheel base-why is it still so short?
- Thread starter PeterMJ
- Start date
The shorter wheelbase is nice for agility, longer is better for stability. I think the cars are a bit of an optical illusion to begin with. You sit in one and think that the hood is a mile long, but in reality the car is almost shorter than a Porsche.
Short wheelbase is only good for agility if there is not fore and aft overhang, like in a Mini Cooper
No, it is not optical illusion, the Gen 1 and 2 Viper wheelbase was 96.2, cars were 175.1 inches long, Gen 3 and 4 had 98.8 inch, 176.6 inch long, Gen 5 has 98.8 inch wheelbase and is 176.7 inch long. For comparison, C4 Corvette wheelbase 96.2, length 176.5 inch, C6 wheelbase 105.7 inch, length 174.6 inch and C7 wheelbase 106.7 inch, length 176.9 (worse than C6). The extreme example, Mini Cooper 97.2 inch, length 144.7. I hope you can draw some conclusions here regarding overhang. Viper seems to be stuck here in distant past. I think by now, there should be less overhang on the Viper. Your legs would appreciate that one among other things but I guess this would require Fiat to really re-engineer the Viper.
The overhang thing to me has a lot to do with styling though. While I'll agree that it's better from a performance standpoint, I've never liked the look of snub nosed and tailed cars. I've always thought the mini looked goofy with the rear wheel arch not even really finishing before the end of the car. Just doesn't complete the lines very well. And it's hard to have a sharp agressive nose when you have 26" of tire you have to get on top of in a hurry unless you do the big arches like the old C3 Vettes.
datruodb
Enthusiast
I couldn't imagine how the car would handle if it was much shorter. I'd be afraid to drive it.
Have you ever driven mini? If you have not, you should. The wheelbase is very close to Viper-IT IS A HOOT TO DRIVE!!! Even if it is FWD. If not Mini, try Lotus Elise or Rossion, I do not think anyone complains about their handling. The handling is related as much to the absolute length but more to wheelbase vs. overhang unless everything becomes excessively long of course. I did not suggest shortening the Viper to Mini length but was curious why the wheelbase stays so short while the front bumper continues to serve as a curb finder.
The_Greg
Enthusiast
You seem to be confusing the Viper with a car that agrees to compromise
I always thought curbs/driveways were part of the supercar experience!
I always thought curbs/driveways were part of the supercar experience!
Not exactly, large overhang is old school aerodynamics (look at old Porsche race cars like Moby Dick. The aerodynamics are more challenging with less overhang but apparently there has been progress out there, except for Viper.
Less overhang is good all around, unless you drive an extended bed pick up truck.You seem to be confusing the Viper with a car that agrees to compromise
I always thought curbs/driveways were part of the supercar experience!
I do not think this is about any compromises, this is IMO about moving on with the progress other supercars made, I think performance of this car would benefit from reducing these overhangs, in fact, I am sure it would.
I think this is more about Gilles and his Italian boss refusing to cough up the dough. No worries, there is plenty left for super car experience without these overhangs, toasty sills and falling in and out of the car which I actually enjoy a lot. I like cars that are impractical, so I am not coming from the practicality angle here, just more performance. I am sure the bumper still would be a curb finder, although lowering the car more would carry less penalty.
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supersnake
Enthusiast
Try Bolting in 640 HP and see how she handles.
Uhm, what does that have to do with anything? Are you saying the overhang is necessary to accommodate the horsepower? Have you heard about Hennessey Venom car which is essentially nothing more than Lotus Elise with big motor and considerably more hp than 640. Or Corvette ZR-1 for that matter?
supersnake
Enthusiast
I am saying you put 640HP in a mini and I wouldn't want to drive it. The length of the car is all about design and safety, also down force and lift. The shorter the car is going to require the same if not more spoilers to keep the thing down. I also have cars that are longer than the Viper and a lot more HP but I would not ever drive them the way a Viper is made to be driven
I've learned to appreciate the enormous sills for other reasons as well. Having the exhaust short and off to the side means it's not in the way when you're under the car working on other stuff. Pipes always have a tendency to get in the way on other cars I've worked on...
You would be ok with 640 hp in Corvette though, I hope? Again, this is not about the length of a car but OVERHANG.
I like them too, I think they are pretty cool (figuratively speaking only), although I noticed they do get in a way a bit when working on the interior, including speakers
Ah yes, interior work is entertaining with them. They make such a nice place to sit on sometimes, but only after the car has been shut off for a while. Doesn't take long before you realize that's not where your butt should be.
They are easy to dent too, considering they are aluminum, burning myself does not scare me, messing up my car does and big time. Flesh heals, metal does not.
The_Greg
Enthusiast
The Viper and the 458 Italia actually have very similar ratios both of (wheelbase to track width) and (overall length to wheelbase). The Viper performs very well at its current wheelbase, and the overhang really accents its low & long look!
For grins, here are some cars and their wheelbase, track width, and overall length in inches:
Viper: 98.8, 62.9, 175.7
Veyron: 106, 64.2, 175.7
MINI: 97, 48.5, 146.8
Exige: 90.6, 57.2, 149.5
458 Italia: 104.3, 65.8, 178.2
For grins, here are some cars and their wheelbase, track width, and overall length in inches:
Viper: 98.8, 62.9, 175.7
Veyron: 106, 64.2, 175.7
MINI: 97, 48.5, 146.8
Exige: 90.6, 57.2, 149.5
458 Italia: 104.3, 65.8, 178.2
I think you shortened the viper by an inch and this may get you in trouble with some folks. I think those ratios match Corvette C6 way better than Viper and thus follow my thinking (I provided some numbers in previous posts as well).
Why is it exactly silly? This is about making Viper a more modern and ultimately better car. No doubt this is a matter of opinion but I can name quite a few that seem way more silly to me.
The_Greg
Enthusiast
Hmm... My #'s match the spec sheet.
http://www.drivesrt.com/assets/docs/2013/2013-SRT-Viper-ViperGTS-Specs.pdf
I'm leaning towards agreement with slysnake... perhaps we all should consider wondering/wishing for more important things in life than a change in one dimension of a (already very capable) car...
http://www.drivesrt.com/assets/docs/2013/2013-SRT-Viper-ViperGTS-Specs.pdf
I'm leaning towards agreement with slysnake... perhaps we all should consider wondering/wishing for more important things in life than a change in one dimension of a (already very capable) car...
Yup, I am off by an inch. I do not dispute that these things are a matter of personal priorities. For me, they matter especially when shopping for cars but of course, this is strictly my POV.
Yep, goofy thread. But I will jump in anyway. Overhang is basically styling. It really doesn't have much to do with performance. To illustrate, you could make your own stubby front bumper that doesn't extend much beyond the radiator core support. Overhang is greatly reduced. No difference in handling, though (except for saving a couple of pounds of plastic up front). In fact, take the whole body off and consider what it is that you want to do with the car. Do you think a lengthening the distance between the wheels adds performance? It would add straight line stability, but I don't think that is a problem - except for the guys that are heading to Speed Week at Bonneville this weekend - those guys love to stretch out the wheelbases for 300+ mph runs. Certainly it won't help cornering (engineers could chime in with some voodoo magic called moment-of-inertia). Greater distance between the front and back tires would also give you more occupant space or luggage space, but not performance.
Will respond quickly, then stop feeding yet another pointless Vette plug, the Viper is not good enough thread! Small overhang cars have zero style and class. Case in point for the Vette and others like it. Looks like it was backed into a building and left for dead. Like to think the Viper owners have more taste than that and they do.
Personally small overhang cars look like the manufacturer was too cheap to do it right with style/beauty and tried to save a buck by reducing materials. That is the way it looks and comes across. If it meant all this extra performance to have it for the Viper, then I would prefer a slower Viper with the overhang and awesome looks/style, than a faster small overhang Viper that I was embarassed to have anyone see me in. Everyone can quote performance, benefits for parking (Ha! Ha!) all they want, doesn't change the fact it looks like a$$.
Bigger is not always better, look at Pamala Anderson when she was starting out and then after all the plastic surgery, enhancements, etc. I think the Viper is sized just right. Silly question!
Personally small overhang cars look like the manufacturer was too cheap to do it right with style/beauty and tried to save a buck by reducing materials. That is the way it looks and comes across. If it meant all this extra performance to have it for the Viper, then I would prefer a slower Viper with the overhang and awesome looks/style, than a faster small overhang Viper that I was embarassed to have anyone see me in. Everyone can quote performance, benefits for parking (Ha! Ha!) all they want, doesn't change the fact it looks like a$$.
Bigger is not always better, look at Pamala Anderson when she was starting out and then after all the plastic surgery, enhancements, etc. I think the Viper is sized just right. Silly question!
Gheez, a vette plug, maybe a Mini plug instead?
I think I bought a Viper to troll on a Viper forum.
I shared my thoughts about certain things that bug me. Apparently this is not a good thing and we should just continue to stroke each other instead. If you do not like the subject, walk away instead of complaining about trolling since this is what you are doing yourself. And no, reusing previous frame is not being cheap, I finally realize this part. Thanks for the enlightenment. Now, over and out because I do not want to lose my fun driving my car.
I don't think I said anything about trolling in my post or that I called you a troll? Would be nice to see where that is hence if you could point it out to me, I would appreciate it. It is sometimes hard to see, living under a bridge and all.
As a paid member and Viper owner here for many years, troll I am not, but it is a free country, you should be able to say and express what you want, when you want. Just don't expect everyone to just jump up and down and clap when you suggest something that someone else does not agree with like extending the wheel base so it has less overhang.
As far as vette plug, well I suggest you go back and re-read your responses and tell me if you are not trying to vette plug when the vast majority of your responses are followed up with vette comparisons which you are the one bringing up to justify some point. I like the Mini car and it is cute. Fun for what it is, which is what I believe you were saying. Your vette comparisons are not following that same trend; they are made for much different reasons.
But hey it is Friday and there is no reason to hate on my part. It still doesn't change the fact it is a silly question at least in my opinion which you said it is important to voice your thoughts. However if you are that troubled by this wheelbase/overhang issue, the vette and mini already have your answer ready to go. If you really want to know why the answers as to why SRT has not seen the light and why they haven't jumped to just replace the frame to address this big overhang issue, then ask SRT directly in a question session or better yet just Twitter Ralph directly. I am sure he will love to hear the rationale of change because the Corvette is doing it.
As far as the stroking thing, I can't help you there either (sorry, I am just not much help here) as I am not into that sort of thing. But you are right, I will walk away from this thread now.
As a paid member and Viper owner here for many years, troll I am not, but it is a free country, you should be able to say and express what you want, when you want. Just don't expect everyone to just jump up and down and clap when you suggest something that someone else does not agree with like extending the wheel base so it has less overhang.
As far as vette plug, well I suggest you go back and re-read your responses and tell me if you are not trying to vette plug when the vast majority of your responses are followed up with vette comparisons which you are the one bringing up to justify some point. I like the Mini car and it is cute. Fun for what it is, which is what I believe you were saying. Your vette comparisons are not following that same trend; they are made for much different reasons.
But hey it is Friday and there is no reason to hate on my part. It still doesn't change the fact it is a silly question at least in my opinion which you said it is important to voice your thoughts. However if you are that troubled by this wheelbase/overhang issue, the vette and mini already have your answer ready to go. If you really want to know why the answers as to why SRT has not seen the light and why they haven't jumped to just replace the frame to address this big overhang issue, then ask SRT directly in a question session or better yet just Twitter Ralph directly. I am sure he will love to hear the rationale of change because the Corvette is doing it.
As far as the stroking thing, I can't help you there either (sorry, I am just not much help here) as I am not into that sort of thing. But you are right, I will walk away from this thread now.
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
Viper looks great. Mini looks smushed and goofy.
Viper handles at high speeds much better than Mini. (Mini cannot even do high speeds)
Some say the Mini is just an overpriced econobox.
I personally like Mini's but think they ride like poop and are way overpriced. (also have mouse motor)
Lots of cars on the market. You can buy the one you want, but no reason to come on this forum and denegrade.
Viper handles at high speeds much better than Mini. (Mini cannot even do high speeds)
Some say the Mini is just an overpriced econobox.
I personally like Mini's but think they ride like poop and are way overpriced. (also have mouse motor)
Lots of cars on the market. You can buy the one you want, but no reason to come on this forum and denegrade.
vancouver-gts
Viper Owner
Gheez, a vette plug, maybe a Mini plug instead?
Look at the overhang of my friend's NobleM400. It's certainly more than the Mini's. Which car do you think handles better?. Handling is improved more by less weight and engine placement [ less inertia throwing in the corners] than worry about overhang.
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