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Went back to the dyno - MOPAR PCM vs OEM

Discussion in 'SRT10 and SRT10 Coupe Discussions' started by 1.8t, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. 1.8t

    1.8t Viper Owner

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    First off, mods on my car are Bellanger headers, Bellanger 3" catted exhaust, and a K&N replacement filter.

    As many of you know, I dyno'ed the MOPAR PCM the other week and showed a near net loss compared to the OEM ECU, but the dyno runs were separated by nearly 2 weeks. Everyone on here told me that I needed more miles on the MOPAR PCM and that the comparison needed to be done on the same day to account for atmospheric conditions. I agreed that a direct comparison was needed and I put more miles on the MOPAR PCM as many on here instructed me to do.

    Fast forward to last night. I hit the dyno once again with both PCMs in my possession to get a direct comparison. The dyno is a dynojet 248c and all runs were SAE corrected. I did 2 "hot runs" with each PCM followed by a timed 20min cool down for a final 3rd run. The 3rd run is always the best due to lower coolant temps and this is the run that is compared on the graph below.

    Red is the OEM ECU and blue is the MOPAR ECU. These runs were separated by only 45min and the car wasn't even unstrapped when I changed the ECUs.

    [​IMG]

    So there you have it. A direct A-B comparison on the same day, same conditions, same dyno, with the same test method. Only variable was the ECU. I stand corrected on my previous thread about the MOPAR PCM as it does function as advertised and as many on here have reported.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011
  2. mjorgensen Woodhouse

    mjorgensen Woodhouse VCA Member - West VCA Member

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    +1 :2tu::headbang:
     
  3. bmw2nv2000

    bmw2nv2000 Viper Owner

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    Sweet! I too was dissapointed but now I feel better about my venom controller :2tu:
     
  4. ACR steve

    ACR steve Viper Owner

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    7 hp/10.9 tq am I missing somthing? doesnt sound like much at all? and it doesnt look like it changed the curve? The increase in slight power like that could be in just the oil/ transmission fluid heating up.
     
  5. 1.8t

    1.8t Viper Owner

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    Per my testing, it can't be the oil or transmission temperature. Both tests were performed with the same pre heating runs followed by a timed cool down run. All fluid temps were extremely close for the final power pull with each ECU. This ECU is only good for 5-10hp and 10lb/ft of tq. It performed as advertised.
     
  6. bmw2nv2000

    bmw2nv2000 Viper Owner

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    Although its not much, This is exactly what I was told when I bought my controller and Im just glad to see it provides just that.
     
  7. DMan

    DMan Viper Owner

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    Wow, that was great of you to do this and share, props, nicely done & I know appreciated by a lot of folks. Guys like you make this such a cool car community. Seriously, thnx! Oh and nice numbers, amazing how nice these respond to what is essentially an exhaust upgrade, makes me think the Gen5 could have the 650-700hp potential fit hey wanted to do it bad enough.

    I've finally given in, i've been waiting on a couple projects to figure out what I might do with my 08, but I'm just leaving her as is. I'll be happy with her til we get into yr 2 of the Gen5 and I see what I think of it. Meantime, I'll grab a set of rubber from JonB, some wheels, and move on. When I need my 700+hp fix i just get in the stang & stomp it, it's all good .. I just hope the Gen5 is all it could be, or there may just have to go 'back to the future' with a Gen3 / FI combo, & then I'll feel like a real horses butt for selling mine in the 1st place.
     
  8. rw99

    rw99 Enthusiast

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    I assume you were running 93 octane the whole time? Thanks for the effort & time you took to do the head-to-head comparo.
     
  9. 1.8t

    1.8t Viper Owner

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    93oct is all this car ever runs. I am located in Atlanta, Ga and 93oct is our premium here.
     
  10. redtanrt10

    redtanrt10 Viper Owner

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    1.8t, I saw you other thread and since Mark and a few others gave you insight I didn't post comments. So glad you put miles on the controller as well as set the dyno comparison in the conditions you described. Didn't want to argue on your first thread, knew they'd make more power not lose it. (on a similar back to back I picked 9 hp and 14 trq) If I knew you were gonna dyno back to back like you did I would have suggested mixing some 100 to get the octane up to 95, probably would have yieled and additional 2-3 hp and trq with the venom and no change with the stock controller.

    After 2 years plus still alot of misconceptions on the venom controller. Seems like many folks think this is a "super chip" and for $1K you gonna get 30hp and get disapointed at only 10hp. People like Mark J, Dan and DC are the experts, but from my experience on these Gen IV motors your going to pay $100.00 per hp once you get past a cat-back exhaust.

    The venom controller has many advantages with extra hp and trq being just a small piece.
     
  11. JonB

    JonB Viper Owner

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    Exactly, Red... The PCM has several clear 'throttle' and other advantages for modified Vipers and for track-rats, and the 10-15HP / TQ is just a bonus. You GOTTA like a company and the guys that make that item available for "Off Road Use." I was sorry to see the Gen 2 Mopar PCM go obsolete.....still a lot of demand.....
     
  12. Twister

    Twister Viper Owner

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    Always the case. Same as with a new air intake. Takes miles for everything to synch. Happy to see a power gain.
     
  13. wikkid

    wikkid Viper Owner

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    Nice, track rat or not, there's no way you can tell me that you can feel a difference in those numbers. Not a chance... just sayin..
     
  14. mbccenter

    mbccenter Viper Owner

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    Higher Octane will loose HP unless you need it. I have had problems with the Mopar PCM and detonation at high rpm's on 92 oct.
     
  15. Hamrhead

    Hamrhead Enthusiast

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    Very Good info to know - Thanks!
     
  16. alpha85

    alpha85 VCA Member - South VCA Member

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    Try the Torco and you will like it even better. Mix 1.6oz per gallon with your 93 octane. It will really wake it up.
     
  17. JonB

    JonB Viper Owner

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    NOT TRUE! Please read several other reviews, where throttle-lag is virtually gone, throttle responsiveness both on and off throttle are much improved. The "crisp, snappier feel" is exactly that. A more 'precise' throttle feel and tachometer response.
     
  18. GTS Bruce

    GTS Bruce Enthusiast

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    Should have sent the stock ecu to DC and had them tune it up. GTS Bruce
     
  19. bmw2nv2000

    bmw2nv2000 Viper Owner

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    Is this possible on a Gen 4?
     
  20. JonB

    JonB Viper Owner

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    THE YEAR MATTERS.............NOT A GEN 4 OPTION......

    JonB ~~~~:<~
     
  21. ACRsnake

    ACRsnake Enthusiast

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    i do not think so
     
  22. Nader

    Nader Viper Owner

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    No it is not. Only on gen 3.
     
  23. Viper X

    Viper X VCA Member - South VCA Member

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    With the Gen IV engine, Mopar controller, Belangers, ported intake (Arrow or others), K & N Filter, no cats, 3-inch exhausts, my 09 ACR made more horse power and more torque with a flatter, higher hp and tq curve as octane increased.

    At DC in LA, I had Chris (their ace tuner), monitor the timing during our dyno sessions. That day, the Mopar controller pulled timing at 91, 92, 93 and even at about 95 octane. As octane rating increased above 91 up to 95, so did the power output. It also increased above 95, though incrementally less. So, if you can afford it and are at a track where power matters, run 100 octane and don't look back ..... you will pull on everybody else in your class. The only other step I know of at this time is doing the ported / polished heads which will net you about 20 rwhp and is pretty spendy for that little bit of extra power at the top of the rpm band. Torque seems to stay about the same.

    And FYI, on the Torco fuel treatment. I have tried it. It does work well. It also leaves reddish brown deposits on your plugs, valves and heads. I could not recommend it for track use.

    Dan
     
  24. TrackAire

    TrackAire Viper Owner

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    I agree with what Dan says about octane, especially on gen 4's.

    I disagree with a lot of people when it comes to octane and your horsepower. With a gen 4 and the advanced processor and knock sensors it has, octane matters, but not where most people care about. Most common question is "will it give me more horsepower?". If your car is rated at 600 hp, then I don't think octane will change that peak number worth mentioning. But, when running around a track in 100 degree temps, octane does matter since the thing moving your car around the track is not only your peak 600 hp, but the horsepower and torque under the curve. This is where you'll see the most gain with increased octane, regardless of which gen 4 controller you're using IMO.

    The gen 4's pull timing as needed, not just to match the octane, but to also match the IAT's, lugging in 3rd gear, heat soaked motor, high oil temps, high water temps, etc. It's the power you make from midrange to max rpm that moves you around the track. Peak power is great, but much time can be gained or lost between the midrange rpms and peak rpm. So if your car doesn't have the octane to keep up with the controller pulling timing, you're going to go slower. I just don't think a dyno can really show what the car needs in octane in real world conditions on the track....maybe some sort of data logger that reads individual cylinders and timing can be done. Somebody has already done something like this with aftermarket controllers (Motec or Pectel) IIRC.

    If your gen 4 is running 93 octane and a mopar controller against a gen 4 with 100 octane and a mopar controller, the 93 octane car might be down 20 foot pounds of torque in the midrange under load. Although that doesn't sound like a lot, it adds up in a 15 to 20 minute track session.

    Cheers,
    George
     
  25. Viper X

    Viper X VCA Member - South VCA Member

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    George,

    Great response. We'll have to get you out to the track with us some day. Some of us are planning to drive Buttonwillow with Speed Ventures Dec 18 & 19.

    Many things come into play with the Gen IV controller. I also run a more efficient radiator, try cover all of the openings in the radiator "box" (to get as much as as possible going through the radiator, not around it) put a spring in the upper radiator hose and run mostly water (instead of antifreeze) and pull the rain deflector in the hood for more of a "ram air" effect along with running 100 octane unleaded gas. Really, I'm just trying to keep coolant, IAT, and oil temps down so that the computer doesn't pull as much timing as the other guys and thus create more power under the curve. Some track guys also remove the screens over the hood openings for more air flow - haven't gone there yet.....

    As a side note, I was really impressed at how well the BBG ported / polished heads made very high, flat hp and tq curves on a recent dyno sheet posted on this board somewhere. Just out of my price range at this time.

    As Carroll Shelby once said, torque wins races but horsepower sells cars. On a road course, you really don't spend much time at 6400 rpm, so peak hp isn't as important as a flatter hp and torque band, i.e. more power "under" the curve.

    Good luck,

    Dan
     
  26. TrackAire

    TrackAire Viper Owner

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    Dan,

    Yikes, less than 3 weeks to Button Willow....jeez, this year has just flown by way too fast. I'm stuck up north for the month moving our work to a new location. If I can, I might just make a quick run down to see you guys run on Sunday.....we'll see how the dang move is going.

    I have a BBG intake but have not had the time to install it. I'm planning to have Toddy install it when we do my VCA trans (modified 5th and 6th gear) swap.

    Kick butt at Button Willow!!

    Cheers,
    George
     
  27. Viper X

    Viper X VCA Member - South VCA Member

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    You will love the 5th / 6th gear swap. I did it too on my ACR which is a track car. Only down side is if you do any extended high speed cruising, like long trips, you may want to consider changing only 5th gear and sticking with the OE 6th gear, like the 2010 cars.

    The intake swap took me about 2 hours. Could have done it quicker but I'm very meticulous, i.e. I inspect and clean everything up while I have it apart. I was surprised by the amount of oil around my intake ports even though I had installed a catch can at about 500 odometer miles.

    Also, if you haven't had your injectors cleaned and balanced, you may want to have that done while the intake is off. I do this every year on my Vipers and always find an injector or two that aren't flowing like they should. RC Engineering can do this for you hear in So Cal. Likely, there is somebody in the Bay area that can do it too.

    Dan
     
  28. Pappa Prich

    Pappa Prich Enthusiast

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    Great thread and information! Thanks for taking the time and effort to do this test.
     
  29. X-Metal

    X-Metal Viper Owner

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    good deal. thanks for posting and taking the time to retest everything.
     
  30. bmw2nv2000

    bmw2nv2000 Viper Owner

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    Thanks for the tip on the injectors Dan. About how much does that service cost I think I may have that done when I do my port intake to make sure my injectors are operating correctly.
     

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