Why does DC choose not to install traction

Warfang

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Didn't realize this was going to be such a delicate subject.

As I mentioned above and as my signature states very clearly I would have the car no other way............I was curious, although, as to why Viper is probably the only sports car out there without traction control.

Now you know why. Vipers aren't for whiny ninnies. :2tu:

Who are Vipers for? When was the last time you tracked your Viper? What do you run in the 1/4 mile?...... Yeah, I thought so...

I don't see much thinking there. I've seen plenty of whiny ninnies on AND off the track, so you're attempt at being snitty is wasted. I've only tracked a couple times, but hey... we can't all be studs like Chuck. (I wanna be just like Chuck when I grow up) :2tu:

Guys like you reinforces the San Francisco stereotype (fyi-In SF here as well). Does typing in bold make you feel more like a man? :p
 

INSOMNIAC

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Like it or not, the next generation of Viper will have a switchable traction control. If nothing else for the liability factor. Assuming you have a 600+ HP vehicle, it will be extraordinarily easy to break loose. And I don't see them building Vipers with Kumhos as factory rubber.

The thing that sells Vipers is horsepower and exotic looks. The latest version (SRT-10) gained in one area and dropped a little in another (and before I get any crap for that comment, note that I didn't say it looked any worse - just less "exotic"). You have a handful of track rats that want the Viper to remain "pure" with no electronic assistance whatsoever. They eschew ABS or anything else that removes the driver even a little bit.

And therein lies the rub: The Viper is built for the public roads and not sold as a track car (witness the convertible). The folks that want to race them have, for the most part, stuck with their Gen II's (or even gone back to one) or gotten a Comp Coupe. I have yet to hear of anybody ordering the new Coupe for racing purposes. The vast majority (95%+) that buy the Viper today buy it for street use only. And very few have the skills exemplified by Chuck, Janni, and some of the others here. Result? More accidents, lawsuits, and deaths. Enough so to warrant switchable traction control as a realistic option.

Now, there is a solution for those that don't want these things. Let's call it something like, oh, an American Club Racer edition - or "ACR" for short. You may remember that Dodge built us some of those in the past and sold a fairly limited number of them. They were the most "pure" of Vipers ever built: No air conditioning, no radios, no driving lights. Five point harnesses, better suspension, lighter wheels, and more horsepower. Ironically very few were ordered that way, with the vast majority electing to add back in the stereo and air conditioning. Indeed, in four years time they only built 38 ACR's without the "comfort group" - out of the total of 819 built.

As for me, I am no hero and certainly can't claim the driving skills of some of you. While I have probably made 250+ passes in various Vipers down the 1/4 mile, done a few road course events, and ahem, maybe raced somebody outside those venues never to exceed the speed limit - I know that unless the roads are perfect, I will invariably break loose when I least want to do so. When a 356 HP Porsche beats me with AWD and TC on dirty, um, tracks, then I won't be shy about hitting the "on" button in some situations. Especially if I am pushing 600 or more horsepower.

So the question is one of safety and building one "for the masses", even if those masses are less than 3000 per year. And build an ACR version with no electronic aids for those that want them. Just make sure that A/C is an option. :2tu:

Couldn't have said better...
 

INSOMNIAC

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(I wanna be just like Chuck when I grow up) :2tu:

Guys like you reinforces the San Francisco stereotype (fyi-In SF here as well). Does typing in bold make you feel more like a man? :p

You can't see much thinking nut ******* cause you don't have enough brain cells to interpret what you see.

Hey, we want to be different right. Stand out from the crowd right. That's the reason I'm typing in bold.... :D Well, actually it is easier to read bold letters in internet explorer on my screen.

Guys like me reinforce the San Francisco stereotype?? That's funny. What's San Francisco stereotype Mr. Chuck's-nut-*******? Well nutswingers like you don't reinforce anything... Does driving your GTS make you feel like a man? Why do you need the feel to say "FYI In SF here as well"? Are you hitting on me or what?
 

Warfang

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It is just that there are narrowminded people in the Viper community who call anybody having different ideas than themselves sissies or whiners.

These Vipernecks normally drive GENI or GENII and hate everything about GENIII's. :p [/b]

Shows what you know. You're the only narrow-minded person in this thread. Narcissistic at that. Everything has to revolve around you including your opinions of the Viper. The bold type is a symptom. We all have to like what you think or face the wrath of your ninni-ness.

You will not find ONE gen1/2 owner who thinks that it handles and brakes better than a gen3 stock for stock. Many just don't like the body styling. Does that bother you? Are you more superior because you can see the light and we neanderthals prefer to not have traction control?

What makes you so wise? I mean, your so damn macho to assume people don't have as much track experience as you. You must be Mario Andretti right? You're probably so good you can track in reverse and dragrace your grandmother at high noon right? :rolleyes:
 

INSOMNIAC

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No way buddy. Like I said, I'm not going down without a fight!

NO TC FOR YOU!!! NEXT!!!

- think Seinfeld, the Soup ****.

******** it. I WANT MY SOUP...
 
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wormdoggy

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Like it or not, the next generation of Viper will have a switchable traction control. If nothing else for the liability factor. Assuming you have a 600+ HP vehicle, it will be extraordinarily easy to break loose. And I don't see them building Vipers with Kumhos as factory rubber.

The thing that sells Vipers is horsepower and exotic looks. The latest version (SRT-10) gained in one area and dropped a little in another (and before I get any crap for that comment, note that I didn't say it looked any worse - just less "exotic"). You have a handful of track rats that want the Viper to remain "pure" with no electronic assistance whatsoever. They eschew ABS or anything else that removes the driver even a little bit.

And therein lies the rub: The Viper is built for the public roads and not sold as a track car (witness the convertible). The folks that want to race them have, for the most part, stuck with their Gen II's (or even gone back to one) or gotten a Comp Coupe. I have yet to hear of anybody ordering the new Coupe for racing purposes. The vast majority (95%+) that buy the Viper today buy it for street use only. And very few have the skills exemplified by Chuck, Janni, and some of the others here. Result? More accidents, lawsuits, and deaths. Enough so to warrant switchable traction control as a realistic option.

Now, there is a solution for those that don't want these things. Let's call it something like, oh, an American Club Racer edition - or "ACR" for short. You may remember that Dodge built us some of those in the past and sold a fairly limited number of them. They were the most "pure" of Vipers ever built: No air conditioning, no radios, no driving lights. Five point harnesses, better suspension, lighter wheels, and more horsepower. Ironically very few were ordered that way, with the vast majority electing to add back in the stereo and air conditioning. Indeed, in four years time they only built 38 ACR's without the "comfort group" - out of the total of 819 built.

As for me, I am no hero and certainly can't claim the driving skills of some of you. While I have probably made 250+ passes in various Vipers down the 1/4 mile, done a few road course events, and ahem, maybe raced somebody outside those venues never to exceed the speed limit - I know that unless the roads are perfect, I will invariably break loose when I least want to do so. When a 356 HP Porsche beats me with AWD and TC on dirty, um, tracks, then I won't be shy about hitting the "on" button in some situations. Especially if I am pushing 600 or more horsepower.

So the question is one of safety and building one "for the masses", even if those masses are less than 3000 per year. And build an ACR version with no electronic aids for those that want them. Just make sure that A/C is an option. :2tu:


The other day I was coming home from a Viper event without any major events occuring. Just before I made to my home I needed to stop and get some 94 octane gas at the nearest fill shop. Well..... I decided to open her up one last blast just before I put her back in the garage...........without any warning the back end came lose and it scared the crap out of me. I thought I new the car, I thought I new everything about. Hell I've been driving it for 7 months without any problems whatsover.

YES...I started getting caulky .

Now I new the cold pavement was an issue because she never went lose like that before on me even at higher revs...... and that's when I started thinking about traction control. Only for a brief moment mide you.......................only for a brief moment.

And that is why I agree liability issues will force DC to install traction control. Lets face there are alot of people who buy these cars without any driving abilities whatsover. Just look at your nearest auto trader and see how many wrecks are listed for sale. Lets just hope they weren't fatalities!!!

Patrick
 

INSOMNIAC

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It is just that there are narrowminded people in the Viper community who call anybody having different ideas than themselves sissies or whiners.

These Vipernecks normally drive GENI or GENII and hate everything about GENIII's. :p [/b]

Shows what you know. You're the only narrow-minded person in this thread. Narcissistic at that. Everything has to revolve around you including your opinions of the Viper. The bold type is a symptom. We all have to like what you think or face the wrath of your ninni-ness.

You will not find ONE gen1/2 owner who thinks that it handles and brakes better than a gen3 stock for stock. Many just don't like the body styling. Does that bother you? Are you more superior because you can see the light and we neanderthals prefer to not have traction control?

What makes you so wise? I mean, your so damn macho to assume people don't have as much track experience as you. You must be Mario Andretti right? You're probably so good you can track in reverse and dragrace your grandmother at high noon right? :rolleyes:

Yes, I'm so wise and bold too... :D :D
 
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wormdoggy

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Father,
I have sinned cause I said Active Stability Control in VCA forum. :D

Actually its true name is Acceleration Slip Regulation or ASR......Canadians decided to change the name to traction control during or about the same time they invented BASKETBALL.

:D :D :D :shocked: :laugh: :eek:
 

Warfang

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The other day I was coming home from a Viper event without any major incidences occuring. Just before I made to my home I needed to stop and get some 94 octane gas at the nearest fill shop. Well, I decided to open her up a little just for one last blast before I put her back in the garage...........WELL.....without any warning the back end came lose and it scared the crap out of me. I thought I new the car, I thought I new everything about. Hell I've been driving it for 7 months without any problems whatsover.

YES...I started getting caulky .

Now I new the cold pavement was an issue because she never went lose like that before on me even at higher revs...... and that's when I started thinking about traction control. Only for a brief moment mide you.......................only for a brief moment.

And that is why I agree liability issues will force DC to install traction control. Lets face there are alot of people who buy these cars without any driving abilities whatsover. Just look at your nearest auto trader and see how many wrecks are listed for sale. Lets just hope they weren't fatalities!!!

Patrick

When you got "caulky"... did you find yourself sticking onto surfaces and becoming water repellent? :D

There are a lot of people that buy a lot of things without knowing it's capabilities. Like guns... if you blow your kid's head off because you "thought" the gun was empty and playing cowboys with it was fun, that's your own damn fault. You can't blame the manufacturer for a person's stupidity. If DC is concerned about liability, then might as well make the Viper only go 70mph and a install a thousand airbags. Oh yeah, and a traction control you can turn on and off. :rolleyes:

When you recovered after almost losing it was your first though: "I better be more careful next time," or was it, "If I crashed I would have sued Dodge for not installing traction control?" One thought defines a reasonable man, the other a whiny ninnie. Guess which is which?
 

INSOMNIAC

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Are you hitting on me or what? [/b]

Sorry to disappoint you. I guess it's another lonely nite at the Art's with Mr. Blowup doll. :eek:

You don't need to be embarrassed Sore-thong. There are a lot of nutswingers like you out there. But you are something, huh?

Next time you go to Power Exchange. Ask for "The Machine". They will bring you to me.
 

INSOMNIAC

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Father,
I have sinned cause I said Active Stability Control in VCA forum. :D

Actually its true name is Acceleration Slip Regulation or ASR......Canadians decided to change the name to traction control during or about the same time they invented BASKETBALL.

:D :D :D :shocked: :laugh: :eek:

:D :D :D :D :D
 

M. ROD

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I am suprised that DC has chosen to continue production of these cars without it. Is it a question of money? Reduction in HP ? Why ?

Herb Helbig, is the “Grailkeeper“. His official title is Manager of Vehicle Synthesis. In other words, he is keeping the Viper, as it evolves through the course of its life, true to the original set of parameters.

From Herb himself:

We’ve got to keep it simple, we’ve got to make it fun, its got to be the most outrageous car you’ve ever touched. When you turn the key on, the hair on the back of your neck has got to stand up. It’s got to be a visceral, emotional, almost religious experience. It falls to me to make sure that we don’t lose sight of why we started this program. It’s all about fun, passion, and the desire just to put people back on their heels to say “I can’t believe these guys made such an outrageous, awesome, off-the-scale car”. It’s a challenge to mature it, to grow the car up a little, yet not lose its essence. When people come to me and say “you know it really needs cruise control; I took one to Chicago and my right foot got kinda tired…” that guy gets thrown out of my office. Or a guy comes in and says “you know, it would be cool if we had power seats’ that guy gets thrown out of the building. And the guy who says “I think we need an automatic transmission” well, they’re still looking for his body.

It’s just the nature of the car to be that way. To be raw, in your face, not a car that grandma could jump in and master. The Viper doesn't have to apologize to anyone for the way it is(not that it looks like it's going to be making any apologies :D ). It’s a bad boy, a rebel, a bully. That’s just the way it is, and I for one love it. :2tu:

Mike
 

Warfang

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I am suprised that DC has chosen to continue production of these cars without it. Is it a question of money? Reduction in HP ? Why ?

Herb Helbig, is the “Grailkeeper“. His official title is Manager of Vehicle Synthesis. In other words, he is keeping the Viper, as it evolves through the course of its life, true to the original set of parameters.

From Herb himself:

We’ve got to keep it simple, we’ve got to make it fun, its got to be the most outrageous car you’ve ever touched. When you turn the key on, the hair on the back of your neck has got to stand up. It’s got to be a visceral, emotional, almost religious experience. It falls to me to make sure that we don’t lose sight of why we started this program. It’s all about fun, passion, and the desire just to put people back on their heels to say “I can’t believe these guys made such an outrageous, awesome, off-the-scale car”. It’s a challenge to mature it, to grow the car up a little, yet not lose its essence. When people come to me and say “you know it really needs cruise control; I took one to Chicago and my right foot got kinda tired…” that guy gets thrown out of my office. Or a guy comes in and says “you know, it would be cool if we had power seats’ that guy gets thrown out of the building. And the guy who says “I think we need an automatic transmission” well, they’re still looking for his body.

It’s just the nature of the car to be that way. To be raw, in your face, not a car that grandma could jump in and master. The Viper doesn't have to apologize to anyone for the way it is(not that it looks like it's going to be making any apologies :D ). It’s a bad boy, a rebel, a bully. That’s just the way it is, and I for one love it. :2tu:

Mike

All hail Herb! We're not worthy! :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
 
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wormdoggy

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I am suprised that DC has chosen to continue production of these cars without it. Is it a question of money? Reduction in HP ? Why ?

Herb Helbig, is the “Grailkeeper“. His official title is Manager of Vehicle Synthesis. In other words, he is keeping the Viper, as it evolves through the course of its life, true to the original set of parameters.

From Herb himself:

We’ve got to keep it simple, we’ve got to make it fun, its got to be the most outrageous car you’ve ever touched. When you turn the key on, the hair on the back of your neck has got to stand up. It’s got to be a visceral, emotional, almost religious experience. It falls to me to make sure that we don’t lose sight of why we started this program. It’s all about fun, passion, and the desire just to put people back on their heels to say “I can’t believe these guys made such an outrageous, awesome, off-the-scale car”. It’s a challenge to mature it, to grow the car up a little, yet not lose its essence. When people come to me and say “you know it really needs cruise control; I took one to Chicago and my right foot got kinda tired…” that guy gets thrown out of my office. Or a guy comes in and says “you know, it would be cool if we had power seats’ that guy gets thrown out of the building. And the guy who says “I think we need an automatic transmission” well, they’re still looking for his body.

It’s just the nature of the car to be that way. To be raw, in your face, not a car that grandma could jump in and master. The Viper doesn't have to apologize to anyone for the way it is(not that it looks like it's going to be making any apologies :D ). It’s a bad boy, a rebel, a bully. That’s just the way it is, and I for one love it. :2tu:

Mike


NICE ....................as I sit here eating my shrimp cocktail salad and reading this post , I have a trickle of water sliding down the side of my face .................. VERY NICE INDEED :2tu: :2tu: :2tu: :2tu: :2tu: :2tu:
 

Vipera Russelli

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Re: Why does DC choose not to install traction

Next time you go to Power Exchange. Ask for "The Machine". They will bring you to me.[/b]
And here I was naively guessing that The Power Exchange was a garage, or maybe a gym, or a health bar. HA!

http://www.powerexchange.com/


Are you seriously bragging about yourself sexually completely out of context? How funny!
 

Warfang

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It's always nice when the moderators take out the trash. :)

Back to the subject at hand... I think DC should make a Viper with traction control and all the goodies to compete with the vette, but they should call it the Firepower! Oh wait.... they're already doing that.
 

INSOMNIAC

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It's always nice when the moderators take out the trash. :)

How come? You are still here...
Going back to the topic, Active Stability Control is a necessity today in high HP & TQ cars. You can control a 8500 rpm F360 with the low TQ but it takes some talent to control the monster TQ of the 8.3L V10. DC will eventually put Stability Control in VIper in the years to come.
 

Warfang

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It's always nice when the moderators take out the trash. :)

How come? You are still here...
Going back to the topic, Active Stability Control is a necessity today in high HP & TQ cars. You can control a 8500 rpm F360 with the low TQ but it takes some talent to control the monster TQ of the 8.3L V10. DC will eventually put Stability Control in VIper in the years to come.

I guess "talent" is the operative word here.
 

Early93Viper

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We don’t need a watered down viper. Just like back in the 60’s we didn’t need a water down Shelby cobra.

A Viper is a minimalist car that should adhere to its purity. What makes the Viper great IMO is not so much its ¼ mile times or how it looks but how special it is to have such a pure car in this day and age. Car companies are putting so much crap in the cars; giving more and more control to a computer. Is it not great that we have an alternative?

When you put a viper on a road course (where a viper feels most at home) you get this feeling of accomplishment knowing your driving it not some computer. You have no cheat button. It’s Just a raw sports car and you. You can’t beat that feeling.

And remember Traction Control hurts 1/4 mile times and lap times. (If a good driver is driving.) Its main use is to keep you in control during street use.

If you want to throw a bunch of gadgets and make a car with a viper frame, etc. fine. Call it something different (firepower). I would rather see the viper die then see it become something its not. It’s too special of a car.
 

onerareviper

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Hasn't DC learned? Does Chuck need to book a trip to Detroit/Germany and smack some people around? What makes the Viper IS ITS RADICAL nature. In appearance (toned down the appearance of the SRT10 - BIG MISTAKE), in its massive V10 with horrible fuel economy (BIG MISTAKE if they change this), and the NO FRILLS performance. It is UNIQUE. ONE OF A KIND. Trying to compete with the other players is a BIG MISTAKE. There should be NO direct competition with the Viper. Those who want one DON'T EVEN CONSIDER ANOTHER CAR. Was anyone cross shopping a Corvette C4 in 1996 against the Gen II GTS? Didn't think so.... A modern day Shelby Cobra. Try to think OUT OF THE BOX, for lack of a better term. My recommendations:

1.) Make the Viper less appealing to the masses. Make it look more cartoonish and radical, like the Gen I/Gen II or Gen III GTS-R concept car. It should be a POSTER car for the enthusiast. The Viper will NEVER (or should never be) be a Corvette, so why try to compete with it? This car should not be CLASSY. Nothing like a Ferrari. It should SCARE small children and old people, but WOW them at the same time. Comments like, "you couldn't pay me to ride in that car" should come standard from your old mother-in-law because the mere sound/presence of the car frightens her. It should P*SS off the cookie cutter magazine testers, that care more about comfort, luggage space, cup holders and high-tech gadgets than raw performance. Comments like "Sure the Viper is the fastest around the track, but......." should be STANDARD in EVERY rag review.

2.) The HP/Torque HAS TO CLEARLY TRUMP everything near its price range. Therefore, 575-600 HP is mandatory. With 8.3 Liters, I don't think it would take that much thought/investment. A more aggressive cam is a MUST. Who cares if the car shakes a bit, that's part of the charm. A little gear rattle, so what? With 600 HP, no one is complaining.

3.) Who cares about getting a flat tire and being able to drive? Give me a break. DUMP THE RUN FLATS. Put a freaking donut in the rear, and slap some soft rubber on the car. I don't care if they only last for 7-10K miles. That's fine. How many miles does the typical owner put on a Viper a year anyway? Long lasting tires is not a priority for most owners. Just take a look at the Subi STI and Mitsu EVO. Those tires they use are like gumballs, and as any racer knows the tires are the most important part of the vehicle, bar none. This would eliminate the discussion of traction control, etc... Not only that, but the performance increase would be SUBSTANTIAL in handling/traction/braking. I think 1/2 the tread life is worth the trade, and so would most Viper owners IMO. And spare me the weight saving issue.... A donut and jack weigh next to nothing. 25 pounds maybe.... We can save weight elsewhere, see below...

4.) Dropping some weight would be nice, if it can be done without spending a fortune. Exhaust, rims, and a few other odds and ends. 100-200 pound reduction would be fantastic.

5.) The Viper should be the HALO car for Dodge. Selling units and making money (thru Viper sales) should NOT be the main priority. It should represent what Dodge can be, and bring people into the showrooms. It should show that Dodge is not afraid to do things differently, as this can be reflected in there other makes.

*** I could probably ad a few more things, but it's getting late (2:30) and I think I've said enough. Not to mention a picture is worth a thousand words.

2089Viper_GTS_R_Concept3.jpg


2089Viper_GTS_R_Concept2.jpg


2089Viper_GTS_R_Concept1.jpg
 

SRT10_SWISS

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Like it or not, the next generation of Viper will have a switchable traction control. If nothing else for the liability factor. Assuming you have a 600+ HP vehicle, it will be extraordinarily easy to break loose. And I don't see them building Vipers with Kumhos as factory rubber.

The thing that sells Vipers is horsepower and exotic looks. The latest version (SRT-10) gained in one area and dropped a little in another (and before I get any crap for that comment, note that I didn't say it looked any worse - just less "exotic"). You have a handful of track rats that want the Viper to remain "pure" with no electronic assistance whatsoever. They eschew ABS or anything else that removes the driver even a little bit.

And therein lies the rub: The Viper is built for the public roads and not sold as a track car (witness the convertible). The folks that want to race them have, for the most part, stuck with their Gen II's (or even gone back to one) or gotten a Comp Coupe. I have yet to hear of anybody ordering the new Coupe for racing purposes. The vast majority (95%+) that buy the Viper today buy it for street use only. And very few have the skills exemplified by Chuck, Janni, and some of the others here. Result? More accidents, lawsuits, and deaths. Enough so to warrant switchable traction control as a realistic option.

Now, there is a solution for those that don't want these things. Let's call it something like, oh, an American Club Racer edition - or "ACR" for short. You may remember that Dodge built us some of those in the past and sold a fairly limited number of them. They were the most "pure" of Vipers ever built: No air conditioning, no radios, no driving lights. Five point harnesses, better suspension, lighter wheels, and more horsepower. Ironically very few were ordered that way, with the vast majority electing to add back in the stereo and air conditioning. Indeed, in four years time they only built 38 ACR's without the "comfort group" - out of the total of 819 built.

As for me, I am no hero and certainly can't claim the driving skills of some of you. While I have probably made 250+ passes in various Vipers down the 1/4 mile, done a few road course events, and ahem, maybe raced somebody outside those venues never to exceed the speed limit - I know that unless the roads are perfect, I will invariably break loose when I least want to do so. When a 356 HP Porsche beats me with AWD and TC on dirty, um, tracks, then I won't be shy about hitting the "on" button in some situations. Especially if I am pushing 600 or more horsepower.

So the question is one of safety and building one "for the masses", even if those masses are less than 3000 per year. And build an ACR version with no electronic aids for those that want them. Just make sure that A/C is an option. :2tu:


Thanks!!! you hit the point.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Janni, OneRare and Early93 you guys nailed it. DC needs to post your comments throughout the conference rooms where the decisions are made.
 
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