My Creampuff NA Build
- Thread starter ViperTony
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bluequadcab
Enthusiast
Sounds great Tony, now take it out and come to some events with us! We want to hear it in person!
Shanedog
Enthusiast
Sounds FANTASTIC! I can't wait to see the results!
Sneaky Pete
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Tony,
I've very much enjoyed your write-up and detailed pictures. Thank you very much for posting everything as you've gone along. You're really inspiring me to do my NA GTS too!
Is Frank doing the tuning?
I have much more detail and pics to post. I wanted to turn this into a detailed how to for the illustrated but it's a LOT of information and I hate writing stuff down but I will expand upon my project further.
Frank contacted me two weeks ago and said he'd be in the area this week or next. But I'm chasing an exhaust leak so I don't know if I can hook up with him this week. Plan B is to have one our experienced site sponsors tune remotely while at the dyno facility. But I'm hopeful I can hook up with frank. I'll keep you posted.
Sneaky Pete
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Tony,
I'm going to talk with him tonight. I know he wants to get your car done for you and he was talking about coming up very soon to do it. If this weekend doesn't look good, I doubt it will be an issue to push it off for a week or two. There's no point in rushing anything, I think he's fairly flexible since I'm the only other reason he's coming up... and I have nothing pressing so take your time.
BTW, if anyone else needs some tuning in the CT area, Frank's the guy to do it while he's in the area! I believe he'll have his mobile dyno with him as well.
I'm going to talk with him tonight. I know he wants to get your car done for you and he was talking about coming up very soon to do it. If this weekend doesn't look good, I doubt it will be an issue to push it off for a week or two. There's no point in rushing anything, I think he's fairly flexible since I'm the only other reason he's coming up... and I have nothing pressing so take your time.
BTW, if anyone else needs some tuning in the CT area, Frank's the guy to do it while he's in the area! I believe he'll have his mobile dyno with him as well.
Mobile dyno?!? Really?
I thought he used a local dyno facility...but trailing a mobile dyno is dedication! 
Reality is I need to address my header issue (leaks) and that won't happen until Friday. I don't want to rush...as much as I'm looking forward to a track day I'd rather have everything buttoned up with no worries. Plenty of other track days coming up. Thanks again for the reference for Frank.
Sneaky Pete
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Mobile dyno?!? Really?
When I talked to him last week he was unsure if he was going to rent local dyno time or bring his mobile dyno up. I'll let him know you need another week or two...
hemihead
Viper Owner
Creampuff no more! Tony your car sounds fantastic, I hope you're pleased with the dyno results. I may follow your road map for a this winters (yuck) Viper project. Thanks for taking the time to document this.
I was thinking the same but I sold those TB's a long time ago. On top of that, there's a sweet, new extrude honed intake on ebay that would compliment the TB's and this build well. I believe Paul Scharf has it for sale.
Me too. However, I came across exhaust leaks which Lou Belanger has graciously helped me fix with some replacement parts. Waiting on those to come in next week. I have an appointment for tuning with Frank Smith on 8/20.
No problem, like I said earlier, I have lots of info to post. Whatever the outcome of this build happens to produce, I wanted to post my experience with it so folks know what they're getting into and what to expect out of it.
Tony,
I owe you a special "THANK YOU." I am doing my own wrenching on a build of my '00 GTS that is almost identical to yours. Greg Good has fully worked my heads (10.5:1) and spec'd the same cam you have. Greg also had to bush my timing gear to get the proper advance. My heads are scheduled to arrive today!!!
I really appreciate your detailed explanation of the cam degreeing process. I could have probably figured it out, but your pictures and step-by-step instructions made it much easier. Your sound clip was awesome. I love the sound of that cam - I feel like a kid on Christmas eve now.
I have 70mm TBs that I'm using (with ported/polished intake). However, I still have my stockers. Hopefully I can do a comparison and post the results. I hope the 70mm TBs don't produce less power since they look so pretty
I agree with you that Greg Good is a saint to work with. Also, Chuck Tator has also been a wealth of info and a great place to buy parts.
I'm hoping to get this all buttoned up in the next few days. I'm working remotely with DC Performance for tuning. It may take me a little longer to get it dialed in perfectly (a coupe of dyno sessions with readings and new tunes being emailed). I will report my results when I get it dialed in though. Thanks again for sharing.
I owe you a special "THANK YOU." I am doing my own wrenching on a build of my '00 GTS that is almost identical to yours. Greg Good has fully worked my heads (10.5:1) and spec'd the same cam you have. Greg also had to bush my timing gear to get the proper advance. My heads are scheduled to arrive today!!!
I really appreciate your detailed explanation of the cam degreeing process. I could have probably figured it out, but your pictures and step-by-step instructions made it much easier. Your sound clip was awesome. I love the sound of that cam - I feel like a kid on Christmas eve now.
I have 70mm TBs that I'm using (with ported/polished intake). However, I still have my stockers. Hopefully I can do a comparison and post the results. I hope the 70mm TBs don't produce less power since they look so pretty
I agree with you that Greg Good is a saint to work with. Also, Chuck Tator has also been a wealth of info and a great place to buy parts.
I'm hoping to get this all buttoned up in the next few days. I'm working remotely with DC Performance for tuning. It may take me a little longer to get it dialed in perfectly (a coupe of dyno sessions with readings and new tunes being emailed). I will report my results when I get it dialed in though. Thanks again for sharing.
Sneaky Pete
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Use go to my PC and he can remotely doing the tuning while you're on the dyno... Only one trip and a lot faster!
https://www.gotomypc.com/s/mypc.com
Yep Greg and Chuck rock! I have a laundry list of people to thank which I will list when I get this all done in the next week. I will say that we are blessed to have some incredible members and site sponsors that make these builds happens without issue. The knowledge/expertise, willingness to help, attention to details, professionalism is second to no other car club on this planet!
vpower01
Viper Owner
Holy cow that is one badass sounding motor... Your sound clip Rocks literally.
vipzilla
Viper Owner
About Damm Time Thats All I Can Say Best Of Luck Tony!!!!!!!!
This part of the build should probably be in it's own thread but I'll leave it here for now. Let me start off by saying, I don't believe there's anything wrong with Belanger Headers. I've had my share of frustrations with leaks most likely caused by me when overtorquing the bolts at the flanges AND/OR when my ex-tuner decided to torch the turnout when welding in a WBO sensor because he couldn't figure out how to remove the side sill to get to the WBO **** already installed at the turnout. My last leak was caused by the latter. I decided to replace the turnouts that warped so I called Lou. Lou helped me with a leak 2 years ago so he was familar with me. I asked to purchase new turnouts and after listening to what I was doing he pitched me a new design idea that he wanted to try out. This was something he told me about 2 years ago but he didn't have time to create a jig for it back then.
Let's start with the O2 sensor location(s). Lou and I agree to disagree on whether an O2 located in a primary tube (current design) or collector (my request) is best. Lou swears the single tube location is optimal, I believe the collector is. So I asked him to install them in both locations:
I asked for the **** to be placed on top of the merge collector just under the heat shield and it was measured so it will clear the frame. Most likely, I will need to cut out a hole in the heat shield if the sensor contacts it after installation.
The second design change (as a result of the 02 in the merge collector) is that the pickle is now smaller....a mini pickle:
To give you and idea of the size difference between the pickles:
Old vs. New
The major change Lou did for my headers was installing a slip-fit tube at the Y-collectors. The tube protrudes about 1/4":
Lou's idea behind this tube is that when mated with the collector it will be sealed from both the inside and obviously outside via the standard flange. Even if I'm able to over-torque the bolts again...and bend the ears...the connection should still be leak-proof.
I forgot just how shiney new Belanger headers are (my current set on the left, new on the right):
Lou has taken customer service to a whole new level...he's amazing. These headers are a work of art and well worth it. I don't know if he's going to offer this design or not for the masses but I'm happy to test it for him. I think Lou really outdid himself and he went above and beyond what I asked for. He's a class act and I'm a Belanger customer for life!
Tuning is FINALLY set for Friday!
My last leak was caused by the latter. I decided to replace the turnouts that warped so I called Lou. Lou helped me with a leak 2 years ago so he was familar with me. I asked to purchase new turnouts and after listening to what I was doing he pitched me a new design idea that he wanted to try out. This was something he told me about 2 years ago but he didn't have time to create a jig for it back then.Let's start with the O2 sensor location(s). Lou and I agree to disagree on whether an O2 located in a primary tube (current design) or collector (my request) is best. Lou swears the single tube location is optimal, I believe the collector is. So I asked him to install them in both locations:
I asked for the **** to be placed on top of the merge collector just under the heat shield and it was measured so it will clear the frame. Most likely, I will need to cut out a hole in the heat shield if the sensor contacts it after installation.
The second design change (as a result of the 02 in the merge collector) is that the pickle is now smaller....a mini pickle:
To give you and idea of the size difference between the pickles:
Old vs. New
The major change Lou did for my headers was installing a slip-fit tube at the Y-collectors. The tube protrudes about 1/4":
Lou's idea behind this tube is that when mated with the collector it will be sealed from both the inside and obviously outside via the standard flange. Even if I'm able to over-torque the bolts again...and bend the ears...the connection should still be leak-proof.
I forgot just how shiney new Belanger headers are (my current set on the left, new on the right):
Lou has taken customer service to a whole new level...he's amazing. These headers are a work of art and well worth it. I don't know if he's going to offer this design or not for the masses but I'm happy to test it for him. I think Lou really outdid himself and he went above and beyond what I asked for. He's a class act and I'm a Belanger customer for life!
Tuning is FINALLY set for Friday!
EllowViper
Enthusiast
I had serious leaking on the tri-Y connections. Put a straight-edge on them when I had them off and there was a good 1/16 in gap across the seam. I machined all flanges so they were true and made some corresponding aluminum gaskets vice just letting the flanges butt together. In theory, the aluminum should expand more than the SS and thereby seal properly. So far its been working great. I love your approach (the right way to do it) and that's how they should have been designed from the start. As far as the color goes, mine all look like the old grey color you posted. The new ceramic coating sure is pretty. Can't believe mine once looked like that.
Actually, I don't care how they look so long as they perform. But I will say it's much easier to install the merge collector with this design...everything lines up perfectly. I just finished welding my turnouts to the cats, wideband bungs and I'm good to go. Unfortuantely, my tuner had to cancel for this weekend.
Figures...just when I'm actually ready for tuning but Frank is really busy and its worth the wait. In the meantime, I will have to baby the Viper around for a week. vipzilla
Viper Owner
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
tony if you decide on a (quote real fuel system) then do a real fuel system top feed rails 2 or more pumps in the tank larger injectors and a good tune i have a micky mouse fuel system on mine for now and plum no offence you know how i feel about your car i love it but you dont have a real fuel system either your dlm system works just as mine works but not idealy a fuel system having one in the tank and 2 external pums for me and plum has for extra injectors plummed in the air intake pipes... With your build and after the years of tech. changing we have seen the real way to do fuel systems now on these cars ....good luck with this build tony i cant wait to see the results....
tony if you decide on a (quote real fuel system) then do a real fuel system top feed rails 2 or more pumps in the tank larger injectors and a good tune i have a micky mouse fuel system on mine for now and plum no offence you know how i feel about your car i love it but you dont have a real fuel system either your dlm system works just as mine works but not idealy a fuel system having one in the tank and 2 external pums for me and plum has for extra injectors plummed in the air intake pipes... With your build and after the years of tech. changing we have seen the real way to do fuel systems now on these cars ....good luck with this build tony i cant wait to see the results....
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
Frank is going to be keeping an eye on the fuel pressure during tuning. Greg thinks I should be at 600rwhp, I doubt it unless I remove the cats. I'm hoping for 550. I think the stock fuel system should be fine but we're going to find out soon enough.
Frank is going to be keeping an eye on the fuel pressure during tuning. Greg thinks I should be at 600rwhp, I doubt it unless I remove the cats. I'm hoping for 550. I think the stock fuel system should be fine but we're going to find out soon enough.
vipzilla
Viper Owner
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
im sure the stock system will be fine as well
Frank is going to be keeping an eye on the fuel pressure during tuning. Greg thinks I should be at 600rwhp, I doubt it unless I remove the cats. I'm hoping for 550. I think the stock fuel system should be fine but we're going to find out soon enough.
im sure the stock system will be fine as well
Re: Plumcrazy & Greg Good Are a....
Tony,
I just completed a build that is almost identical to yours. Although I didn't monitor fuel pressure, the AF ratio was solid all the way to 6k rpm when I had it tuned last week (Chris at DC was remotely tuning it for me). I, too, think you will be fine with the stock fuel system.
Tony,
I just completed a build that is almost identical to yours. Although I didn't monitor fuel pressure, the AF ratio was solid all the way to 6k rpm when I had it tuned last week (Chris at DC was remotely tuning it for me). I, too, think you will be fine with the stock fuel system.
My 98 GTS with 600rwhp/644rwtq was fine with stock fuel system (not including injectors).
IF it is fine on the dyno that doesn't necessarily mean that the car will be fine with acceleratio added to the equation. My mid 11s 72 Charger ran a 12.5 ET on street tires and 12.9 with slicks. Problem was that the slicks hooked and the car left the line so hard that the it was running out of fuel all the way down the track on slicks. The street tires spun so much that the fuel pump did supply gas all the way down. That took a few weeks to figure out. With 10.5 to 1 compression there was no engine damage (n/a).
If Greg says the fuel system needs to be upgraded I'd do it. The Walbro 255 pump upgrade is simple, easy and good for more than 700rwhp.
Ted
Ted
IF it is fine on the dyno that doesn't necessarily mean that the car will be fine with acceleratio added to the equation. My mid 11s 72 Charger ran a 12.5 ET on street tires and 12.9 with slicks. Problem was that the slicks hooked and the car left the line so hard that the it was running out of fuel all the way down the track on slicks. The street tires spun so much that the fuel pump did supply gas all the way down. That took a few weeks to figure out. With 10.5 to 1 compression there was no engine damage (n/a).
If Greg says the fuel system needs to be upgraded I'd do it. The Walbro 255 pump upgrade is simple, easy and good for more than 700rwhp.
Ted
Ted
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