Advice on driving experience

[mlambert890]

Hoping to get some perspective (understanding there will be some bias)

In the past Ive owned NSX's, a 911, a Vette... I am at the point where I am about to buy a toy again and keep coming back to the Viper - alternating between the Gen 2 and the SRT.

The visceral nature and outrageous character of the car appeal to me along with its classic status. I've "taken them for a spin" but I feel thats not enough to really get a sense of things for me.

Everytime I think Ive decided to go for it, I find that Ill hear some stories of guys killing themselves as they roll out of the dealership with 1 mile on the car, flying off the onramp on the way to get milk from 7-11, getting 3rd degree burns on their legs or needing aftermarket mods to make the cabin bearable, bump steering their way into oncoming tractor trailers...

I read this stuff and it kind of sends me back to the "safe zone" of the 911 TT. A car I know well that is a bargain but, to be honest, is kind of boring (not so much to drive, but just overall). Ive even started to look at an Esprit or two!

So Im hoping to collect some opinions... Im not a leadfoot and have aged past my reckless stage and this will be a weekend toy, but am I going to have to quadruple my life insurance if I get one of these things? I would say I'm *adequate* in a performance machine given that I dont think the 911/NSX/and Vette really train you properly unless you've pushed them at a track (which I havent - just street driving)

Is it stick with the VCA forums, or back to Rennlist (or maybe even Lotus Talk!!!)???

 

[Warfang]

If you're scared to drive a Viper, you'll be just fine! It's the idiots that think they can drive anything that get into these freak accidents. If you're looking for a little insurance, get any Viper 2001-present. They have ABS. That's about all the nannytech you're going to get on a Viper.

The Viper is probably the safest supercar you will find. The frame is super rigid and fat tires keep you glued to the asphalt. But you MUST respect it. Just like a loaded gun... you don't run around the house and play hot potato with it. If you don't respect it... then you'll be the next fantastic story we tell newbies to keep them from killing themselves.

If you're STILL uncertain.... get the Lotus. It has much of the same back-to-basics approach as the Viper, but without any of the power. Finally, if you really don't need our respect, you can always get a Corvette.

 

[mlambert890]

Hahahaha! Im done with the Vette... What a bitter sweet experience that was. My whole life I dreamed of them and when I was finally able to buy one in 2000, the experience was kind of a dud. I modded the hell out of the C5 and the community is great, but the Vette (man I hate to say this) just kind of lacks character somehow. I think the C3 was the end. The Z06 woke it up a little, but they really need radically different styling.

Anyway... The fear I definitely have!!! So so far this sounds like it may be good. The Esprit is very tempting and Im getting a PPI on one tomorrow, but the trouble there is if I start racking up $10k repair bills Ill need a divorce lawyer who will then take the car So that may be a risk... Also still trying to quantify just how expensive it is to run one of those...

 

[Warfang]

Hahahaha! Im done with the Vette... What a bitter sweet experience that was. My whole life I dreamed of them and when I was finally able to buy one in 2000, the experience was kind of a dud. I modded the hell out of the C5 and the community is great, but the Vette (man I hate to say this) just kind of lacks character somehow. I think the C3 was the end. The Z06 woke it up a little, but they really need radically different styling.

Anyway... The fear I definitely have!!! So so far this sounds like it may be good. The Esprit is very tempting and Im getting a PPI on one tomorrow, but the trouble there is if I start racking up $10k repair bills Ill need a divorce lawyer who will then take the car So that may be a risk... Also still trying to quantify just how expensive it is to run one of those...

The Viper is deceptively cheap to maintain. It's simplicity makes it easy to do a lot of the work yourself if you're inclined to do so. I get a couple oil changes a year for around $150 each. The transmission is the same as the Vette, so many places can work on them. The body may cost a bit to fix, especially on a gen2 hood ($15k give or take $5k) depending on who you ask! I had a scrape from a car that took off a little fiberglass and paint... $600 good as new!

The downside is what we call the "Viper Tax". People think since you own a Viper, you must be filthy rich and deserve to get charged more for stuff. Hide it when the landscaper comes around. Also, because of the small numbers, aftermarket selection is very slim and pricier than other cars. Modding is more expensive, but there's really not much you NEED to mod on a Viper.

I would advise finding a VCA member in your area and meet him over lunch... you'll buy one in a heartbeat after seeing/riding in one!

 

[eucharistos]

your past cars and consideration cars are all nice,

Warfang gave you good feed back, if you turn your own wrenches, repairs/maint/upgrades are very reasonable.

bang for the buck: owner driving experience (low end torque), bling factor, "viper grin", cost of ownership all go to the Viper. if money no object, then the choices are unlimited, but for viper budget amounts for a "toy" car (even a dd for some), nothing compares.

you won't regret it

 

[mlambert890]

Thanks guys! Im not worried about maintenance on the Viper, thats my concern with the Lotus.

Although I had a chat with a Porsche/Lotus mechanic today and he told me Porsche parts were worse and labor was a wash. The 911 wasnt an issue for me, so Lotus is probably viable assuming the car is well sorted when I get it (I can take it from there)

My main fear with the Viper is that Ill end up dead in it! But it sounds like maybe a lot of the HUGE number of totalled Vipers (proportionally) are from guys who overshot their abilities and didnt respect the nature of the car.

 

[Warfang]

Thanks guys! Im not worried about maintenance on the Viper, thats my concern with the Lotus.

Although I had a chat with a Porsche/Lotus mechanic today and he told me Porsche parts were worse and labor was a wash. The 911 wasnt an issue for me, so Lotus is probably viable assuming the car is well sorted when I get it (I can take it from there)

My main fear with the Viper is that Ill end up dead in it! But it sounds like maybe a lot of the HUGE number of totalled Vipers (proportionally) are from guys who overshot their abilities and didnt respect the nature of the car.

BINGO! I was scared to death like you before getting my 97GTS, especially with a lack of ABS. 5 years later without getting myself killed, I'm still VERY aware when I drive, but I see that now as being "one" with the car. It's very zen actually. This isn't a car you drive while eating, making calls, and reading the papers.

I took a couple classes at a performance school, and understanding vehicle dynamics puts you way ahead of any "lotto winner" driving his first 600hp supercar off the lot. My opinion... you'll do just fine!

 

[sun diego]

Are there any Lotus Esprits still on the road running? Not many, anyways. I looked at them, and found high repair cost and parts unavailability.

The GTS is the best looking, highly likely to be collectable, but rides rough. The 03-05 rides better and are great value. The 08-09 run very strong, and are great value slightly used.

 

[rcl4668]

Agree with the posts above. I have a 2008 and had a 2006 and my sense is that the Gen III and IV are actually quite forgiving and even neutral in a track environment. On the street, as long as you treat the car respectfully and don't drive in a ham ****** way (which it sounds like you don't), you will be fine.

Most of the horror stories about early crashes in the Vipers fit into the category of people (new owners or car dealership staff) who get reckless with the car by trying to overdrive it or drive it in conditions that would make a reasonabe person think twice (hitting the throttle hard in low temperature conditions before the tires warm up etc).

On the road and track, this car is incredible and highly capable. The added bonus is that if you respect it it will make you a better, more competent and, yes, safer driver.

/Rich

 

[Vreracing]

I went from a Porsche Turbo 96 to a 98 GTS and didn't have any problems. I didn't think the Porsche was boring, there just wasn't anywhere local to get it worked on. That was 10 years and 50,000 miles ago. The repair costs between the two were not even close with the Porsche repairs being at least twice the Vipers.

If you're worried about the Viper you can just drive it around like a regular car. You don't have to Hot Rod it everywhere you go and you don't have to race every teenager you run into.

 

[RTTTTed]

Lotus? They rate up there with Jags - that Lotus? Toyota 4 cylinder engine? My 92 Daytona IROC R/T has a Lotus DOHC 2.2 with 224hp. Kinda old tech though, and 15sec quarter miles.

Now my Viper GTS ... 750+rwhp of supercharged madness. Start with a slower one with only a few mods and then buy a modified one later when you're used to stock. 10.5@139mph on street tires! I have 3 Stealth R/T TTs for ordinary driving. I'd run my Stealths against a Lotus no problem. But, once the snow melts and the tires on the Viper have some traction ... The AWD and AWS of the Stealth (and 911) are great for the snow and ice on highway 20. The 500hp in my modified Stealth is awesome, but not comparable to the 300 'burnout capable Viper. There's nothing like banging second gear at 95mph and fishtailing away from a Z06 like it's sitting still. I did learn that Viper's don't get cupholders because the HOT coffee doesn't stay in the damn cup during WOT though.

There is a huge difference between owning an "exotic car" and the "World's Fastest Road Car". Owning a car that stomps the Veyron around the Nuremburg Ring also has a bit of class. The GTR was turned into a "has been" by a 640hp vette, and that was turned into a "has been" by a Viper.

Only buy a Viper if you have a strong heart. I heard that all Viper crashes are caused by guys having heart attacks

I guess I should make a comment about runcraps as they caused me to hydroplane and head-on a Semi. BUT ... since the Viper is built for horrendous crashes, the wife and I never even got a bruise. Truck drive hurt his wrist when I wrecked his Tractor.

You must be registered for see images

The accident was caused by deep puddles on the highway during a torrential downpour. Picture is showing a head-on with Semi at 60mph! If you have to hit a Semi do it in a Viper!!!

Ted

 

[Viper X]

mlambert8890,

Sounds like you'll do just fine. If you decide to go Viper, or even if you don't, contact the local Viper Club and ask someone for some input and a ride.

Many of the local clubs have car control clinics and road course events. Many of the local guys will have driving (track) experience and will be able to help you become a better driver and learn Viper.

Take a HPDE class or two with Viper friends and just use common sense when driving.

Compared with other choices, you'll be glad you chose Viper.

Dan

 

[ViperGeorge]

Any car can wreck. I've had a Gen2, Gen3 and a Gen4. The Gen 3&4 cars are definitely more forgiving and are actually quite easy to drive. The Gen2 could be a real handful if you got fresh with her. If you get a Gen 3 get rid of the Run Craps. In the rain or cold they could definitely cause you to wreck. The PS2s on the Gen4 are great. At this point I feel comfortable driving a Viper, you just have to show it some respect.

When you drive a Viper you get a lot of attention. Let's face it if you show up in a ZR1 or a Z06 people will say "nice Vette". They have no idea that the car is something special. Ditto with a Porsche Turbo, "nice 911". Show up in a Viper (any Generation) and you'll get "wow!" or some other exclamation.

 

[Leslie]

I have been there/done that with the vette and other 'safe' cars, and I have to tell you, I have NEVER had as much 4 yrs tracking my Z06 as I did one wknd in my Viper.

Ok, the 'bite' factor? Sure, it's definitely there, I see waaayyy too many Vipers with '5K miles' oh and uhhh...'2K miles' and they are 10 years old THAT'S where all these posted crashes come from, people who DON'T have seat time in the car, who have not put it through the paces and who have not spun it out and know how to handle it in a controlled environment.

Get a Viper if you are looking for raw power, brute force, unbelievable lines and a 'wow' factor you have never seen before!

 

[Frankster]

Buy the Viper.

Have a healhty respect for it................

And to improve your driving ability without endangering yourself or your car join the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) and do a bunch of Autocross events.

It'll get you the feel of the Viper without doing any harm to yourself or the car. The worst you could do is spin out at speed and with nothing to hit you'll be just fine. It's also a good way to learn what has been termed the "Viper Bite"! No big deal really once you've experienced it a bunch of times doing an Autocross event.

That's how I went about learning so I highly reccommend this as a way of learning your Viper.

If more people did this before getting crazy on the roads we would have less accidents.

 

[mlambert890]

These are great and really useful comments guys... Im still on the fence and everything is still open.

On the Lotus though, keep in mind the Esprit is a different beast than the Elise or Exige and the later Esprits are different than the earlier. The 2001-2004 V8TT Esprit is pretty bullet proof as long as it is maintained correctly and parts really are a bit less even than a 911 (I discovered the #1 source for Lotus parts on the East Coast is somehow like 10 minutes from me)

Im going to look at an Esprit at Princeton Lotus on Wed and we'll see what happens. There arent a ton of the late model Esprits in existance (not many were made), so not many are left

Many of the older Esprits were a massive headache and money sink and the new ones (Elise and Exige) are little go kart type things that personally dont appeal to me.

All of that said, I still feel drawn back to the Viper and it will be TOUGH if the Esprit turns out to be *perfect* (Im bringing the "Chuck Tator" of Lotus cars with me to verify )

The 911TT I still find boring. Its safe and practical because I know it, can stuff the kid in the back seat, etc. Its a monster on the road and as easy to drive in a docile way as a regular 911, but with huge power on tap and a gentle power curve.

That said, its still just kind of boring. Maybe because it looks basically like a 911 with a bodykit. For me, part of the fun of these cars is exaggerated looks, outrageous personality, exclusivity, etc. The 911TT kind of fails in those categories even as it hugely excels in the more technical ones. The overal pleasure of driving is really a sum of all of those things for me.

 

[mlambert890]

Buy the Viper.

Have a healhty respect for it................

And to improve your driving ability without endangering yourself or your car join the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) and do a bunch of Autocross events.

.

Forgot to add.. I *really* like this idea. It is something I had always steered clear of, but I think this would be a great idea and a lot of fun. Ill have to see if there is an active community anywhere near me in PA.

 

[PacificSEASnake]

...keep in mind the Esprit is a different beast than the Elise or Exige and the later Esprits are different than the earlier. The 2001-2004 V8TT Esprit is pretty bullet proof as long as it is maintained correctly and parts really are a bit less even than a 911 ...

Sounds like you're trying to make a case for the Lotus here. There's no comparison to a Viper. When I see any Lotus driving around here, I mostly notice it for the ridiculous neon color it is painted. Black or silver Lotus would just blend into the background. Any color Viper gets noticed (although black is the fastest)

Back to Viper driving experience... I came from various ****** cars and 7 years in a two wheel drive Ford F150 pick-up, so I know owning multiple XYZ sportscars isn't what keeps it between the fences. Take your time and learn the car and what it tells you it wants to do. Then drive then bejeebers out of it.

 

[viperbilliam]

As mentioned before, just make sure the tires are warm and the streets not cold - should be over 60 F before driving hard. For more peace of mind and more fun, consider a Quaife rear end if you are looking at the 03-06s.

 

[gb66gth]

The car is a total blast to drive! It's safe as long as you respect it and don't drive over your head. As far as burning your leg on the side pipe,yes it gets pretty warm but never hot enough to brun you unless you leave your skin on it too long.

 

[mlambert890]

Sounds like you're trying to make a case for the Lotus here. There's no comparison to a Viper. When I see any Lotus driving around here, I mostly notice it for the ridiculous neon color it is painted. Black or silver Lotus would just blend into the background. Any color Viper gets noticed (although black is the fastest)

Back to Viper driving experience... I came from various ****** cars and 7 years in a two wheel drive Ford F150 pick-up, so I know owning multiple XYZ sportscars isn't what keeps it between the fences. Take your time and learn the car and what it tells you it wants to do. Then drive then bejeebers out of it.

Nah, not making a case... Just want to make sure everyone is on the same page. THe Lotus cars you're seeing are almost certainly not the Esprit. No chance they are really. They're definitely the little rice rocket Elise (those are always in neon colors)

Its two huely different things (just google V8 Esprit)

Its cool that your first performance car was the Viper... So how was it when you first got behind the wheel? Any close calls over the years? I guess you started slow and learned your way into the car?

 

[Janni]

If you are comparing the Viper with the Lotus - I don't even see how. Torque is addictive.

The Gen III / Gen IV is reasonably easy to drive as others have said here. Way too many folks are just not smooth in their inputs (you've seen them on the highway - yank the wheel this way, or that way, jab the gas with the 100 HP Honda and it's not a bid deal, etc.) and this leads to mishaps.

Smooth acceleration, braking, etc will treat you very well in the Viper.

I really liked the poster that said the car is a handful if you "try to get fresh with her". Good analogy.

 

[ViperGeorge]

One thing that no one mentioned is that the VCA adds a lot to the whole Viper experience. The 10 VOIs that have been held were remarkable events. In New England we have a very active club with lots of opportunities to enjoy the car and get to know other owners. Buy the Viper, join the club, and you'll never regret it.

 

[PacificSEASnake]

Nah, not making a case... Just want to make sure everyone is on the same page. THe Lotus cars you're seeing are almost certainly not the Esprit. No chance they are really. They're definitely the little rice rocket Elise (those are always in neon colors)

Its two huely different things (just google V8 Esprit)

Its cool that your first performance car was the Viper... So how was it when you first got behind the wheel? Any close calls over the years? I guess you started slow and learned your way into the car?

I know what an Esprit is - past one going in the opposite direction just the other day. It was yellow, so I noticed it. If it were black or silver, I could have easily mistaken it for an early Toyota MR2. The styling just blends in for me.

The Viper is my first real performance car. Did have an anemic '77 vette (which was a lot more fun when you ditch the 200 pound spare tire) and few other sports/muscle cars, but nothing comparable to the Viper.

First time out, I was shaking from the adrenaline rush. Mine came with run-craps, so unexpected lane changes were the only problems I've had. The PS2's make a huge difference in taming the beast. I drive the car almost every day, even in the rain , unless it's snowing or I need the truck for some reason. That definitely helps with familiarity. Close calls usually come from other people drifing into your lane while checking out the car.

 

[mlambert890]

This is good info with the tires. It seems universal that the runflats have to go. Im surprised I cant find a used one that just already has the PS2s. It ***** to have to immmediately change a new set of tires and its hard to justify "I have to change the tires" in negotiating if the runflats are new.

Im kind of shocked that you could mistake an Esprit for an MR2. No disrespect but the Esprit is one of the all time exotic mid engine cars. But thats subjective so of course its a your mileage may vary thing.

Also, the point Janni made is actually kind of my whole point. My fear is that the Viper has *too much* torque. That was why I was reluctant to jump in and why Im asking around. I completely realize that the acceleration and torque of the Viper are brutal next to a 911TT or an Esprit. What Ive been wondering and trying to get a sense of is if its "too much".

This thread has been really helpful though! It sounds to me like the runflats simply must go immediately and that a light foot is key (which I have anyway)

I definitely get the picture and I think my driving style would match pretty well to the car.

This thread is definite proof of that last point too about the great community! Thanks all!

 

[Blazeone]

If you get one with run flat tires, ditch them and get some Pilot Sports, etc and a good alignment. That will cure many issues.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

The Viper is flat out the funnest car to drive in the past 40 years.

But don't buy one if you're on the fence.

 

[Warfang]

But don't buy one if you're on the fence.

I agree with Chuck.... but don't rob yourself of the experience of driving/owning a Viper. You won't regret it. Definitely find the local VCA chapter and get a ride from a member. You'll find many will even let you take it for a spin... as long as you don't look like a serial murderer.

 

[Catwood]

Buy the Lotus like Chuck says. It's a fun car, have a blast.

Viper is a commitment and if you are a true car guy, not a guy that wants a fancy name in a car, but a brake fluid in your viens, greese in your fingernails kind of man....The viper will grab you and never let you go. If you're debating...run, you're not that man. oh, and BTW...I don't work on my Viper because it needs it....it's foreplay.

 

[Janni]

Hmmm, Carl... trying to determine what kind of man I am.... ;-)