Pissed at Lingenfelter

plumcrazy

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Now Lingenfelter has already admitted that they put the wrong cam in the motor, there's no questioning that. I just want some labor costs at least to cover what a camshaft costs to install.

so lingenfelter is only HALF pregnant ?.......ernnt, sorry wrong answer. you are either wrong or not. and they are WRONG. since he admits the cam is WRONG, they should pay you for the labor to tear down the admitted INcorrectly built engine, all parts (gaskets included) and that alone is a ton of cash and the labor to do at LEAST the cam install.....

how is it possible for his "master engine builder" to install a totally WRONG cam in this engine, and it be impossible to have screwed up the machine work ? this lingenfelter is screwed up and wrong.

sorry to hear this ! and its obvious you will have to call a lawyer now
 

vipah

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so lingenfelter is only HALF pregnant ?.......ernnt, sorry wrong answer. you are either wrong or not. and they are WRONG. since he admits the cam is WRONG, they should pay you for the labor to tear down the admitted INcorrectly built engine, all parts (gaskets included) and that alone is a ton of cash and the labor to do at LEAST the cam install.....

how is it possible for his "master engine builder" to install a totally WRONG cam in this engine, and it be impossible to have screwed up the machine work ? this lingenfelter is screwed up and wrong.

sorry to hear this ! and its obvious you will have to call a lawyer now

It would be interesting to see if they really 'admitted' to installing the wrong cam versus using other language. My guess is that they didn't really admit anything but are trying to look like they are making an earnest effort to resolve the situation, which would look really good to a judge.
 

lankhoss

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AR Fab would have had to have a spare, stock SRT10 TRUCK cam laying around in the remote chance that it could be used in a fraudulent way. What are the chances of that? About a million to one. Next, I was the one who requested the tear down, not AR Fab. It's not like they were pushing me to tear it down so they could "find something". AR has been spot-on since this whole thing started, and meeting them in person and seeing their shop and all the equipment they have has earned my trust in them.

Now Lingenfelter has already admitted that they put the wrong cam in the motor, there's no questioning that. I just want some labor costs at least to cover what a camshaft costs to install.

Aries,

Please understand I am not making personal statements against that shop. I am taking a very objective approach, which is the way things are looked at from a legal standpoint. I am actually on your side, I believe this shop is being honest. But from a legal standpoint, having them take the engine apart and trying to prove their claims is pretty much impossible. Lingenfelter is DOING YOU A FAVOR by replacing the cam. There is no way your shop can PROVE they didn't send pictures of a DIFFERENT cam or that they didn't scar the thing up themselves.

Again, I'm not saying AR Fab has done anything wrong here, but from a legal standpoint Lingenfelter is pretty much in the clear because that shop took their engine apart without any documented proof on the procedure.
 

lankhoss

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It would be interesting to see if they really 'admitted' to installing the wrong cam versus using other language. My guess is that they didn't really admit anything but are trying to look like they are making an earnest effort to resolve the situation, which would look really good to a judge.

BINGO!

This is what makes a shop good to their customers or not. The thing is, Lingenfelter isn't admitting they put the wrong cam in, and as of right now there's no PROOF that they did. If they wanted, they could just go this route and say "You're SOL." But instead they decided to go ahead and do some free work in an effort to rectify the situation. They certainly don't HAVE to do this.
 

HI-NOS-Viper

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BINGO!

This is what makes a shop good to their customers or not. The thing is, Lingenfelter isn't admitting they put the wrong cam in, and as of right now there's no PROOF that they did. If they wanted, they could just go this route and say "You're SOL." But instead they decided to go ahead and do some free work in an effort to rectify the situation. They certainly don't HAVE to do this.
I will say this being neutral and could of been a possible customer in the future. I WOULD NEVER BUY ANYTHING FROM LINGENFELTER. You say they decided to do free work?? Are you kidding?? Your right they dont have to do anything, but they would be talking to my lawyer by not doing anything. You see the customer does not need to do anything to apologize to the vendor, the vendor needs to try and fix the problem. Simple customer service, especially in these times. This is very simple. He did not get what he paid for. They need to fix it.
 

lankhoss

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I will say this being neutral and could of been a possible customer in the future. I WOULD NEVER BUY ANYTHING FROM LINGENFELTER. You say they decided to do free work?? Are you kidding?? Your right they dont have to do anything, but they would be talking to my lawyer by not doing anything. You see the customer does not need to do anything to apologize to the vendor, the vendor needs to try and fix the problem. Simple customer service, especially in these times. This is very simple. He did not get what he paid for. They need to fix it.

Maybe you missed the part where a competing vendor tore the product apart and then made undocumented claims about said product?
 

albinonile

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I have a good customer who is sending lingenfelter a brand new camaro. He is waiting for the car and it is being shipped right from the dealership to lingenfelter for a TON of work. I am going to tell him all about this thread.
 
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aries

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Maybe you missed the part where a competing vendor tore the product apart and then made undocumented claims about said product?

Undocumented? AR Fab took pics. Now would you care to explain to me how the debris and a used, badly scored cam ended up in that motor? Keep in mind this engine was NEVER STARTED.
 
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aries

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It would be interesting to see if they really 'admitted' to installing the wrong cam versus using other language. My guess is that they didn't really admit anything but are trying to look like they are making an earnest effort to resolve the situation, which would look really good to a judge.

Yes they admitted that they installed the wrong cam. There was supposed to be a Comp Cam as per the build sheet.
 

lankhoss

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Undocumented? AR Fab took pics. Now would you care to explain to me how the debris and a used, badly scored cam ended up in that motor? Keep in mind this engine was NEVER STARTED.

That doesn't prove that's what was in the engine when it was opened. There's nothing proving they didn't create the metal shavings while taking the engine apart. There's nothing proving the cam in the pictures wasn't damaged during removal. There's nothing proving the cam in the picture, is the cam that was in your engine.

Basically, all you have are a bunch of unsubstantiated pictures. The actual engine disassemply itself was NOT documented in anyway.

Why is this concept so difficult for people to understand?

Don't you understand how the justice system works? "Innocent until proven guilty." What that means is when someone is accused of a crime and walks free, it's not always because they were actually innocent....but because there wasn't enough evidence to PROVE they were guilty. This case is no different. There is no PROOF that Lingenfelter f'd up this motor. What you don't understand is Lingenfelter doesn't have to prove that AR Fab created the debris in the engine, but YOU have to prove that LINGENFELTER put it there. It is simply one shop's word against another.

Now, if you guys want to keep dogging out one of the most reputable and long-standing companies in the world for whatever reason, have fun. I really don't give a damn about Lingenfelter, I'll probably never get anything done by them. It really doesn't matter to me. But there is some BAD ADVICE in this thread....and acting like "the man" is trying to screw you over is not helping you one bit. The reality is YOU put yourself in this situation and it's now costing you money. In the future don't buy something you don't have confidence in. And if you do buy something you don't have confidence in, make sure to take the RIGHT measures to get it checked out. As others have suggested, there were ways to "test" this motor without having it completely torn apart. You already stated in an earlier post that "...well, if I had done this, then Lingenfelter would have said that." It's that kind of mentality, of not giving the company the OPPORTUNITY to stand behind their product in the first place that gets people like you in situations like this.

The complete lack of understanding how a situation like this works, and at what point the responsibility is passed, is absolutely amazing. The LAST person to touch your car is always the FIRST one that's responsible for it at that point.

I'm done posting in this thread. I will continue reading it out of curiosity as to how it turns out, but you obviously have no intention of learning from the mistakes you've already made.
 
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lankhoss

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Forgot to update this:

I spoke to Tim Dyer at Lingenfelter and he'as agreed to replace the cam only because it's not a comp cam that was listed in the ad. He's still sticking to the story that the cam didn't look like that when it left his shop. Now I asked for parts and labor money for the tear down and he said 'no way". I asked him, If I hadn't torn the engine apart we would have never discovered this cam and most likley it would have ruined the block and I would have had to tear the motor apart anyway. He says again, the cam didn't look that way when it left. Ok, wouldn't the engine have to come apart to replace the wrong cam listed? Can I get some money back for the labor to a least the cam? Nope, no chance. Unbelievable, they admit to putting the wrong cam in the engine, but say that the wrong cam they put in there did not look like that when it left. Again, this engine was never started!!!!!

Doesn't look like they admitted to installing the wrong cam, to me.

If you can't even understand written English, then I can't possibly get you to understand how the legal system works.
 
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HI-NOS-Viper

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Maybe you missed the part where a competing vendor tore the product apart and then made undocumented claims about said product?
Nope. I can tell you the pics are not fraud, is that what you are saying??? A picture is worth a thousand words. I guess he photo shopped everything :rolleyes: Well I guess he should of just left it the way it was and damage more stuff not if but when it blew. I like your philosophy.
 
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Hey Lank what do you suppose would have happened if I installed that engine and it scored the block and rendered it useless? Do you honestly think Lingenfelter would have covered that? No they wouldn't. They would have said I installed it wrong, or I had a bad tune, or I ran it without oil. Then I'd be stuck with an even higher repair bill. I understand what you are tryingto say from a "legal" standpoint, but use your head and common sense.

BTW- Do you really think I'm going to get a lawyer? I would pay more in legal fees and my time than it will cost me to pay to have it rebuilt by AR Fab.
 

Cop Magnet

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"Innocent until proven guilty" is the standard they use in the criminal courts. This is a civil matter, and the burden of proof is not so rigid. Maybe one of the lawyers here will speak up about this. Or, we could just ask O.J. if this is correct.
 

vipah

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Hey Lank what do you suppose would have happened if I installed that engine and it scored the block and rendered it useless? Do you honestly think Lingenfelter would have covered that? No they wouldn't. They would have said I installed it wrong, or I had a bad tune, or I ran it without oil. Then I'd be stuck with an even higher repair bill. I understand what you are tryingto say from a "legal" standpoint, but use your head and common sense.

BTW- Do you really think I'm going to get a lawyer? I would pay more in legal fees and my time than it will cost me to pay to have it rebuilt by AR Fab.

I think you would have an easier claim when/if the engine blew up, assuming you didn't have someone take it all apart first.

Since it was sold 'as is', their legal liabilty is probably significantly diminished in either case.

It is pretty hard for me to tell from the pictures how bad the cam really is. I still find it very odd that the lobes of the cam look fine in the pictures. I also think that this is the only 'significant' issue. I don't think the debris in the cylinders would have done anything.
 

lankhoss

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Hey Lank what do you suppose would have happened if I installed that engine and it scored the block and rendered it useless? Do you honestly think Lingenfelter would have covered that? No they wouldn't. They would have said I installed it wrong, or I had a bad tune, or I ran it without oil. Then I'd be stuck with an even higher repair bill. I understand what you are tryingto say from a "legal" standpoint, but use your head and common sense.

BTW- Do you really think I'm going to get a lawyer? I would pay more in legal fees and my time than it will cost me to pay to have it rebuilt by AR Fab.


Aries,

I think I may have completely misunderstood this situation. Was this engine bought WITHOUT a warranty? If it was, then the route you have taken was probably a safe bet. If there was a major problem with the engine, yes what you are doing now is cheaper than trying to fix some sort of catastrophic chain reaction that could have happened.

I apologize if this is the case, I thought this was purchased with a typical warranty on it, not "as is."
 
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aries

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Update:

I spoke with Tim at Lingenfelter and they have agreed to pay for a new comp cam and also a top end gasket kit. I'll have to pay for the labor. In the end I'm satified with that arrangement. I just want my car back together.

The silver lining in all this is even though I'm out of pocket more money to pay AR Fab to reassemble the engine, I know that it'll be done right and to Howards high standards.
 

HI-NOS-Viper

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Update:

I spoke with Tim at Lingenfelter and they have agreed to pay for a new comp cam and also a top end gasket kit. I'll have to pay for the labor. In the end I'm satified with that arrangement. I just want my car back together.

The silver lining in all this is even though I'm out of pocket more money to pay AR Fab to reassemble the engine, I know that it'll be done right and to Howards high standards.
Well that is good news that they are willing to work with you on this. That is what a good vendor should do.
 
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