Clutch issues during longer drives

[zombie]

Greetings to all. I picked up a fairly low mileage (66k kilometers / 41k miles) a month ago and over the first couple hundred miles I've had some intermittent problems with clutch engagement.

Originally the problem seemed to be that the hydraulic fluid in the clutch reservoir was black (and I mean black).

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I searched on here and saw people recommended to go to DOT4 for the higher boiling point, so I cleaned out the reservoir as best I could with a syringe and a clean rag and then added new fluid. First drive or two, everything seemed okay, but if I go for a drive longer than 20 or 30 minutes, by the end of the drive the clutch will sometimes not engage and/or the pedal will go pretty much right to the floor with no resistance, pumping the pedal seemed to build up pressure eventually. My car throws a LOT of heat so I'm not sure if it's getting too hot at the transmission or what.

I just used generic "mopar" compatible DOT4 fluid, but should I go with higher spec fluid or should I just bite the bullet and have the slave cylinder replaced?

Thanks for any tips or help you folks can provide.

 

[Old School]

You need to bleed the system

 

[Steve M]

Any mods on the car, specifically exhaust mods? Headers for instance?

The clutch hydraulic line runs pretty close to the exhaust by design, so any mods that remove heat shields or bring the primaries closer to that line can cause issues. I could imagine clogged cats causing similar issues.

As @Old School stated, bleeding the system is a must. Simply sucking the reservoir dry and refilling/pumping the pedal (a.k.a. the Ranger method from around 20 years or so ago) doesn't cut it. You have to crawl under the car and get to the bleeder screw that comes out of the bell housing (above the hydraulic feed line). Might want to find someone with skinny arms/small hands to assist, as it isn't the easiest to get to.

If you ever end up needing to replace the clutch, do yourself a favor and install a remote bleeder line...makes the process so much easier.

 

[zombie]

Any mods on the car, specifically exhaust mods? Headers for instance?

The clutch hydraulic line runs pretty close to the exhaust by design, so any mods that remove heat shields or bring the primaries closer to that line can cause issues. I could imagine clogged cats causing similar issues.

As @Old School stated, bleeding the system is a must. Simply sucking the reservoir dry and refilling/pumping the pedal (a.k.a. the Ranger method from around 20 years or so ago) doesn't cut it. You have to crawl under the car and get to the bleeder screw that comes out of the bell housing (above the hydraulic feed line). Might want to find someone with skinny arms/small hands to assist, as it isn't the easiest to get to.

If you ever end up needing to replace the clutch, do yourself a favor and install a remote bleeder line...makes the process so much easier.

Yes, the car has a Belanger full setup including headers.

I guess I will try to bleed the system, I've got a vacuum bleeder somewhere so hopefully that will help.

Thanks for the replies guys

 

[EastCoastSRT10]

Yep, Bleed the system. Mine did the same thing when the clutch fluid was contaminated with water.

 

[Steve M]

Bleeding will help, but this is going to become a regular occurrence due to the heat from the headers, so get used to the process.

Bleed early, bleed often.

 

[Greg114]

I have the same issue with my 06, on hot summer days it's good for about a 30 minute drive after that the clutch starts acting up from the heat. I have an ace mechanic, top notch, he typically works on high-end vehicles and he told me he has seen the same problem in other vehicles.

 

[Dan Cragin]

re-route the clutch line, you need to disconnect it and move it out of the
way. Its most likely right next to one header tube.

 

[04Mamba]

I had the complete Belanger system installed in my 04' this summer (even paid extra for the header ceramic coating for heat reduction - waste of money). On my way home, the clutch pedal went to the floor while I was driving at 60 MPH. Talk about panic mode - pumped the pedal twice and the clutch pressure come back. Called the installer/mechanic and was told "Oh yeah, that can be a problem since we had to remove the factory heat shields. And you need to change your clutch fluid, it looked a little dark." Nice to know, AFTER, you're zipping down the highway. Anyway, I changed the fluid and put in Heat Shield Products heat guard wrap. Do not use heat shield tape, it will void the Belanger warranty (causes rust issues). These two changes, fluid change and heat shielding, have taken care of my issues. Plus, the car's cabin is a little cooler to boot. Rerouting the clutch line away from the drivers side header and adding a bleeder valve is this winters project.

 

[ACRric]

The blackness is from the hydraulic hose. Change them before bleeding the system. I have the Belanger headers with no covering and no problems, just black fluid.

 

[viperBase1]

I searched on here and saw people recommended to go to DOT4 for the higher boiling point..

Yea get the highest boiling point rating you can find.
Something like Motul RBF 700 (or at least the RBF 600).

Congrats on your new Viper and welcome to Viper ownership!

 

[beerly]

+1 on rerouting the clutch line. After I installed the Belanger headers, high flow cats, and corsa pipes, I had the exact same problem. Boiling the fluid. IIRC wrapping the line and rerouting solved the issue.

 

[zombie]

So I'm still having issues with this. I can barely reach the bleeder screw at the transmission, is there some special tool or technique people are using?

Out of desperation, I tried vacuum bleeding from the reservoir, but it didn't seem to do much.

Appreciate any help anyone can provide.

 

[Steve M]

A remote bleeder line would likely help, but comes with some big drawbacks.

Cons:
- Another line that needs to be routed/insulated from the exhaust heat
- Labor intensive to install - you really need to remove the transmission to do it right
- A potential source of leaks (so buy/build a good quality one)
- It ain't free

Pros:
- You'd now be able to bleed the clutch under the hood (I routed my line back up next to the clutch master reservoir)

I also use a Motive Pressure Bleeder along with the remote bleeder line since I primarily work solo...ends up looking something like this (image below):

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The bucket is to catch any possible brake fluid that leaks out of the pressure bleeder.

The stock bleeder is very challenging to get to, especially if you have larger hands. My hands are fairly skinny, and it was almost impossible for me to get to. You can use a pressure bleeder with the stock bleeder screw, but it makes a mess and I generally don't recommend it.

 

[viperBase1]

Cool Steve, where did you get that bleeder cap for the Clutch fluid rez?

 

[Steve M]

I bought an extra cap off of a junkyard Viper and sent it to Motive to have them modify it to work with their pressure bleeder system. In hindsight, I could have done the same thing myself, but they did a really nice job with it, and it has worked great over the many years I've used it.

 

[viperBase1]

I bought an extra cap off of a junkyard Viper and sent it to Motive to have them modify it to work with their pressure bleeder system. In hindsight, I could have done the same thing myself, but they did a really nice job with it, and it has worked great over the many years I've used it.

Shoulda known.. Another one of your custom creations!

I have the SpeediBleed and need a cap like yours to use it with my remote bleeder. I'll see if I can't finagle somethin'.

I have gotten good at doing the job with the MightyVac and the remote bleeder, but the SpeediBleed would definitely be better.

 

[viperBase1]

Apologies to the OP @zombie.. I thought this thread was all about ME and my trials and tribulations with the clutch and bleeding etc..
Something @Steve M said above that made me review the entire thread.

The bit about the "Black fluid" jumped out at me.
I HAD THAT HAPPEN!

In conjunction with the McLeod RST clutch install at Dan Cragins shop (back in July 2021), had the clutch replacement and Remote Bleeder installed by one of his underlings. Was a less than optimal experience.

Skipping over the sordid details, which provided a similar experience where the clutch pedal went to the floor and I almost drove my Viper through a wall from the garage into the kitchen. I opted to fix the clutch fluid line leak on my own (was just a couple of new fittings..which I was re-imbursed for).

In the process of re-bleeding the clutch system again (using the MightyVac) I guess I pulled more vacuum (inHg's) than the Clutch Actuator cylinder could handle and it flipped the internal rubber plunger/seal (which was old, used and worn out) allowing the clutch fluid to become contaminated. So on the advice of Dan Cragin I replaced the Clutch Actuator. (aka Clutch Slave Master Cylinder)

This doodad

Had to remove the drivers' seat the rocker panel and work on my back in the foot-well for the extraction and install..but I don't recall it being too bad of a job (considering I did it almost 4 years ago). Also made me replace the little pedal basket connector lock that is known to fail.

No problems with black clutch fluid ever since. Though I'm more careful now not to pull too much vacuum on the bleeder line (e.g. 5-7 inHg on the MightyVac).

Hope this helps.

 

[white out]

At a minimum.

Drain reservoir with a syringe. Wipe down. Fill with new fluid (DOT 5.1). Put lid on. Pump the clutch 10 times.
Repeat.
Repeat.
Drive the car.
Repeat.
Repeat.

This should get as much clean fluid in the system without bleeding as possible.

 

[Steve M]

@viperBase1 - just for clarity and to prevent future confusion, the device you showed (and replaced) is the clutch hydraulic system master cylinder.

The clutch hydraulic system slave cylinder is the device that attaches to the front of the transmission and lives inside the bell housing; it's what presses on the clutch to disengage.

 

[viperBase1]

Thanks for the clarification @Steve M ..corrected in my post above.

 

[zombie]

Apologies to the OP @zombie.. I thought this thread was all about ME and my trials and tribulations with the clutch and bleeding etc..
Something @Steve M said above that made me review the entire thread.

The bit about the "Black fluid" jumped out at me.
I HAD THAT HAPPEN!

In conjunction with the McLeod RST clutch install at Dan Cragins shop (back in July 2021), had the clutch replacement and Remote Bleeder installed by one of his underlings. Was a less than optimal experience.

Skipping over the sordid details, which provided a similar experience where the clutch pedal went to the floor and I almost drove my Viper through a wall from the garage into the kitchen. I opted to fix the clutch fluid line leak on my own (was just a couple of new fittings..which I was re-imbursed for).

In the process of re-bleeding the clutch system again (using the MightyVac) I guess I pulled more vacuum (inHg's) than the Clutch Actuator cylinder could handle and it flipped the internal rubber plunger/seal (which was old, used and worn out) allowing the clutch fluid to become contaminated. So on the advice of Dan Cragin I replaced the Clutch Actuator. (aka Clutch Slave Master Cylinder)

This doodad

Had to remove the drivers' seat the rocker panel and work on my back in the foot-well for the extraction and install..but I don't recall it being too bad of a job (considering I did it almost 4 years ago). Also made me replace the little pedal basket connector lock that is known to fail.

No problems with black clutch fluid ever since. Though I'm more careful now not to pull too much vacuum on the bleeder line (e.g. 5-7 inHg on the MightyVac).

Hope this helps.

I haven't had any problems with black fluid since I got rid of the stuff that was in the car when I purchased it, but thanks for the tip.

At a minimum.

Drain reservoir with a syringe. Wipe down. Fill with new fluid (DOT 5.1). Put lid on. Pump the clutch 10 times.
Repeat.
Repeat.
Drive the car.
Repeat.
Repeat.

This should get as much clean fluid in the system without bleeding as possible.

So the manual said to use DOT 3, but I went to DOT 4 originally because I was told they're more or less compatible, but you're saying I should just use DOT 5.x?

 

[white out]

5.1 is compatible and has better heat properties.

 

[zombie]

At a minimum.

Drain reservoir with a syringe. Wipe down. Fill with new fluid (DOT 5.1). Put lid on. Pump the clutch 10 times.
Repeat.
Repeat.
Drive the car.
Repeat.
Repeat.

This should get as much clean fluid in the system without bleeding as possible.

Just to be clear, when you say "repeat", you mean the whole drain the reservoir, fill, pump procedure? Seems like every time you empty it you'd be introducing air into the system?

 

[viperBase1]

Just to be clear, when you say "repeat", you mean the whole drain the reservoir, fill, pump procedure? Seems like every time you empty it you'd be introducing air into the system?

Pretty much.. but yeah, be careful not to drain it entirely to prevent introducing any air. Sounds like you got the idea.

Bled my clutch this morning.
Here's my MightyVac Rig.

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Old fluid (Motul RBF 700) was ~2yrs/old (1100 miles) and looking a little dark. Flushed till clear via the Remote Bleeder and the MightyVac. Fresh RBF 700 is always nice. Rig works great.