N/A Motor Build - 700 rwhp???

[Ricketts]

When i was racing my Gen 2 i wanted a pump gas car with good street manners (3000 miles per year on the street )yet could run low 11s at 132 on Pilots (or mid 10s at 134 on slicks )that was reliable .

I would love for my car to meet this goal.

 

[Joseph Dell]

Since your already in talks with Greg Good Im sure he's mentioned porting a pair of strikers. Last time I spoke with him, he'd ported a pair of strikers that flowed in the 390s. thats impressive.

It was over 400cfm...

 

[Russ M]

To begin with you will need Striker head castings, and have Greg Good or someone equally competent and knowledgeable work them over. Then you will need an intake manifold/headers that will allow you full use of the heads flow capabilities.

Just the two things I mentioned are going to cost you at least 20k not to mention building the bottom end/fuel system/electronics/etc/etc... I just hope you know what you are getting into, because by the time you are done you could have bought another Gen III viper and turbo charged your current one.

 

[redtanrt10]

that's quite an accomplishment. I have run some numbers with Todd and Greg and have concluded with a gen 3 10:5 comp, GG heads and Cam, and a 542 motor setup I fairly certain the 680rwhp can happen. I'm gonna use this car as a street car, not that it matters, just want allot of fun and reliability.

Dipapa, good luck on your build, Todd will do a great job. Supervillian (Antwan) in LA got to around 600 RWHP from Dan C with heads, etc., etc. (and Dan's dyno is conservative).

Can you pass smog with that build, or are you're registered in NV or AZ? From what I've heard at that level you can't pass the tailpipe test in CA.

Best wishes and good luck!! Mike

 

[Green Viper]

My Gen2 heads were done by Lingenfelter (were supposedly ported the same as Norman's) but with a stock compression ratio. I kept the stock pistons and displacement.

With the car leaned out we pulled 570 rw-hp with 9.6:1 with cats & mufflers. It now is tuned more conservatively (running a little rich) and is about ~550. It passes emissions even with the sniffer, runs all day hard in 90+ degree heat on the track.

My guess is with a more aggressive camshaft, higher compression (potentially a stroker setup?) and if as mentioned earlier heads that flowed 400 cfm then 700 rw-hp might be possible.

You may want to contact Tim Dryer at Lingenfelter Performance Engineering, he is very knowledgeable and what he promises is exactly what you get.

 

[1BADGTS]

I've never understood the desire to build NA, when you'll spend as much money if not more vs boosting it. These motors are just way too boost friendly.

Why because if the NA car is done right you can take the car out on a 100 degree day hand the keys to a pro beat the living hell out of it and have it survive thats why .Try that with bolt on supercharged car.

 

[1BADGTS]

Once again iam still trying to find out what exactly your plans are as far as intended use of this Viper.Do you want the baddest NA car on the Dyno or on the STREET-STRIP.If you plan to be king of the dyno thats fine but you have absolutely got to realize that just because you spent a ton of money to get some Dyno print out SAYING you have 700 to the tires does not mean you will have the fastest NA street strip Viper out there.Whatever tuner you plan to use SHOULD HAVE PRACTICAL EXPERIANCE WITH THESE CARS to know EXACT perf specs their package will give you (theorys about what should happen dont always work out)Perfect example one year in the MOPAR Atl Nats i raced a TNT KING SNAKE that was supposed to make 777 horsepower (the poor guy had a dyno sheet that said over 650 to the tire )The thing had a stroker this cyl heads that flowed that and came with a 40 grand plus pricetag.Anyhow the guy lost and of course was quite upset because he PAID for somethng that in no way performed like the dyno numbers ,head flow sheet numbers ,price numbers said it should.

 

[1BADGTS]

Ps if i were you i would give Dan Craigen at DC PERF a call .Great very knowledgeable that tells it like it is.

 

[1fast400]

Why because if the NA car is done right you can take the car out on a 100 degree day hand the keys to a pro beat the living hell out of it and have it survive thats why .Try that with bolt on supercharged car.

I don't have many 100 degree days. Regardless, I've driven my TT car in plenty of hot summer conditions with zero issues. Different strokes for different folks. Just seems like a lot of money to spend to still not be that fast vs what the money spent could get you.

 

[dipapa]

Once again iam still trying to find out what exactly your plans are as far as intended use of this Viper.Do you want the baddest NA car on the Dyno or on the STREET-STRIP.If you plan to be king of the dyno thats fine but you have absolutely got to realize that just because you spent a ton of money to get some Dyno print out SAYING you have 700 to the tires does not mean you will have the fastest NA street strip Viper out there.Whatever tuner you plan to use SHOULD HAVE PRACTICAL EXPERIANCE WITH THESE CARS to know EXACT perf specs their package will give you (theorys about what should happen dont always work out)Perfect example one year in the MOPAR Atl Nats i raced a TNT KING SNAKE that was supposed to make 777 horsepower (the poor guy had a dyno sheet that said over 650 to the tire )The thing had a stroker this cyl heads that flowed that and came with a 40 grand plus pricetag.Anyhow the guy lost and of course was quite upset because he PAID for somethng that in no way performed like the dyno numbers ,head flow sheet numbers ,price numbers said it should.

Right now the car is for the street. Maybe later i will drag/track it. I agree at times hp rating on a dyno dont always feel "seat of the pants", I have experienced that. Sometimes when part throttle tuning and response of the motor is ****, car feels better. So I agree there could be some subtle nuiances between road feel and road power relative to dyno numbers.

I still think dyno numbers is the best theoretical calculator to start off the motor build project. I think builders know more from engine to engine build where they are gonna end up on a dyno number than where there gonna end up on the track. Ultimately if the car is making great power thats a start and things can be tweaked to get it to be a better track car. However, regargdless, power must be there and more power is better.. or so we should assume. The track times has allot to do with suspension, tires, driver and weather/ track conditions. The dyno is purely the motor and drivetrain loss assuming the dyno is well calibrated and relative to a starting baseline. So right now im shooting for power becasue thats all i think i can base performance to.

 

[1BADGTS]

Right now the car is for the street. Maybe later i will drag/track it. I agree at times hp rating on a dyno dont always feel "seat of the pants", I have experienced that. Sometimes when part throttle tuning and response of the motor is ****, car feels better. So I agree there could be some subtle nuiances between road feel and road power relative to dyno numbers.

I still think dyno numbers is the best theoretical calculator to start off the motor build project. I think builders know more from engine to engine build where they are gonna end up on a dyno number than where there gonna end up on the track. Ultimately if the car is making great power thats a start and things can be tweaked to get it to be a better track car. However, regargdless, power must be there and more power is better.. or so we should assume. The track times has allot to do with suspension, tires, driver and weather/ track conditions. The dyno is purely the motor and drivetrain loss assuming the dyno is well calibrated and relative to a starting baseline. So right now im shooting for power becasue thats all i think i can base performance to.

Dont let them BS you my friend any good tuner knows RIGHT where any of his packages should run (if you go with a guy who will not guarantee some type of on track perf BE PREPARED TO GET SHAFTED.CALL Lpe FOR EXAMPLE THEY WILL TELL YOU A POWER NUMBER AND give you mamy previous examples of what to expect from such and such package. .My car was BONE STOCK SUSPENSION ,TIRES .ON any given day,(any weather ect )it ran for 10 years 11.2-11.4 at 128-132 with a variety of drivers.The car won the Mopar Atlantic Nats 4 straight years in the modifyed street tire all motor class and beat a ton of cars that had DYNO sheets saying they made 100 hp more to the tires .It beat them ET and trap speed wise so the CLAIMED POWER THEY WERE MAKING WAS JUST NOT THERE (MAYBE IT WAS ON THE DYNO but THAT DOES NOT ALWAYS EQUATE TO ON TRACK PERF.)

 

[1BADGTS]

I don't have many 100 degree days. Regardless, I've driven my TT car in plenty of hot summer conditions with zero issues. Different strokes for different folks. Just seems like a lot of money to spend to still not be that fast vs what the money spent could get you.

Honestly i can not comment on the twin turbo set ups as i have never had one MAG TESTED by a pro driver.I have though over the years had numerious supercharged cars tested (cars built by some of the BEST SUPERCHARGER GUROS out there )all with the same result= MAJOR ISSUES (kept in boost for a prolonged amount of time on a hot day after motor is heatsoaked ).One friend of mine (who spent 27 grand and did not have the car home for 3 days )called the tuner after their were pieces of the blower all over ENGLISHTOWN to find out then that that type of driving application was out for his car.

 

[dipapa]

Dont let them BS you my friend any good tuner knows RIGHT where any of his packages should run (if you go with a guy who will not guarantee some type of on track perf BE PREPARED TO GET SHAFTED.CALL Lpe FOR EXAMPLE THEY WILL TELL YOU A POWER NUMBER AND give you mamy previous examples of what to expect from such and such package. .My car was BONE STOCK SUSPENSION ,TIRES .ON any given day,(any weather ect )it ran for 10 years 11.2-11.4 at 128-132 with a variety of drivers.The car won the Mopar Atlantic Nats 4 straight years in the modifyed street tire all motor class and beat a ton of cars that had DYNO sheets saying they made 100 hp more to the tires .It beat them ET and trap speed wise so the CLAIMED POWER THEY WERE MAKING WAS JUST NOT THERE (MAYBE IT WAS ON THE DYNO but THAT DOES NOT ALWAYS EQUATE TO ON TRACK PERF.)

Im just working with what im reading from multiple sources and what i have heard from a few nice shops i have stepped into. I do look at some timeslips occasionally but dont go to the track. I appreciate your honesty and concern and as customers spending big bucks we have to be careful. It only takes one bonehead and one bad day to crash our motor party.

I would not trust this motor build to anyone who shop i have not been into at least 20 times and know their reputation and have testimonials. Once good part selection is made, ultimately we are at the mercy of the machinists hands and thorough quality inspection is the only proof of the workmanship at the time we take delivery and sign the check. thats the scarry part. When i had the paxton setup it was verified on 2 different dynos with less than 2% variation. thats good for starters.

I choose to go with Todd, at A&C Performance because we have worked closely for almost 2 years now and he has delivered as he as promised. This build is different now because its a build motor and more than 1 business or person is involved. id say its a bit more than bolt up. We shall see where we end up. i can always say screw this and get the stock motor back in but i do want something real reliable with good power. I have read allot of horror stories of forced induction built motors so im not pursuing that option right now.

I have heard that 650+ rwhp All Motor i wont really want any more power or thrill than that.

 

[plumcrazy]

I have heard that 650+ rwhp All Motor i wont really want any more power or thrill than that.

bwahahahaha, wanna bet ?

 

[97turbo]

You should contact Kevin Singleton 951-545-8223 Exotic Engine Development he builds the highest na motors on the market. He built my motor that dynoed 600rwhp on 9.0 compression normaly aspirated. (set up for Turbos later on)

His reputation is great does excellent work, he will not let you down.

My motor is a gts-r block with dry sump oiling revs to 7500 or better
Racing Strykers heads Soild Cam, Iron sleeved and the list goes on and on.

Before I dedcided to go with a turbo motor set up, he said I could get 750-80 rwhp with higher comperssion and race gas.

So your goal is attainable just depends on how much you want to spend.

 

[1BADGTS]

If i may ask though why are you so fixated on a dyno number for this package instead of letting them GUARANTEE a trap speed .(A trap speed on stock tires should be the theorethical starting point for a perf package not a dyno number as you cant FAKE A TRAP SPEED  ITS WHAT IN REAL LIFE A CAR IS CABABLE OF ) If the tuner your going to does not know what a client (whos going to spend over 25 grand with hims )car should run you MAY HAVE A PROBLEM.Let some one else drop the 25 k to be the test rabbit.

 

[bushido]

You should contact Kevin Singleton 951-545-8223 Exotic Engine Development he builds the highest na motors on the market. He built my motor that dynoed 600rwhp on 9.0 compression normaly aspirated. (set up for Turbos later on)

His reputation is great does excellent work, he will not let you down.

My motor is a gts-r block with dry sump oiling revs to 7500 or better
Racing Strykers heads Soild Cam, Iron sleeved and the list goes on and on.

Before I dedcided to go with a turbo motor set up, he said I could get 750-80 rwhp with higher comperssion and race gas.

So your goal is attainable just depends on how much you want to spend.

Is Kevin still down in Temecula?

His website is no longer there, and I heard that he moved to Reno, something like that..

 

[1BADGTS]

You should contact Kevin Singleton 951-545-8223 Exotic Engine Development he builds the highest na motors on the market. He built my motor that dynoed 600rwhp on 9.0 compression normaly aspirated. (set up for Turbos later on)

His reputation is great does excellent work, he will not let you down.

My motor is a gts-r block with dry sump oiling revs to 7500 or better
Racing Strykers heads Soild Cam, Iron sleeved and the list goes on and on.

Before I dedcided to go with a turbo motor set up, he said I could get 750-80 rwhp with higher comperssion and race gas.

So your goal is attainable just depends on how much you want to spend.

The above typifies my exact point as iam sure he does build the highest dyno numbers out there BUT that does not always mean that translates into the fastest ACCELERATING car at the track.For all the DRY SUMPTED SOLID CAMMED GTSR BLOCKS ECT OUT THERE the fastest time ever recorded on pump gas is a Lpe stroker HYD cammed stock head castings Gts.

 

[dipapa]

bwahahahaha, wanna bet ?

I didnt like the handling with almost 100lb paxton kit hanging off the front of the motor. kinda sloppy in the turns. When I was in Mexico with 750rwhp i never ever found myself accelerating to more than 160-170mph. I dont really care for 800, 900 or even 1000. I want to enjoy the car even more all motor thats one of the main reasons im doing this.

 

[plumcrazy]

i cant argue that kinda stuff but once you mod, there's never enough

 

[1BADGTS]

pS I know what you guys are thinking how can it have the highest dyno numbers and not accelerate the fastest guys please trust me on this one (as i have seen it MANY TIMES )the car with the highest dyno number getting smoked at the strip =TRAP SPEED WHICH IS AN INDICATOR OF HORSEPOWER WISE.

 

[97turbo]

bushido, Yes he is Reno, NV now.

 

[bushido]

bushido, Yes he is Reno, NV now.

Check your pm..

 

[dragon rider]

It sounds like dipapa's goal is more horespower oriented than track times. Different goals for different people. I agree trap speed is the true indication of a cars potential and hp. Trap speed never lies. My buddy has a 580 rwhp supra that runs 12.2, but traps 128mph. He is still learning how to out the power down with street tires. The time isn't that great, but the speed reveals the cars potential.

 

[1BADGTS]

It sounds like dipapa's goal is more horespower oriented than track times. Different goals for different people. I agree trap speed is the true indication of a cars potential and hp. Trap speed never lies. My buddy has a 580 rwhp supra that runs 12.2, but traps 128mph. He is still learning how to out the power down with street tires. The time isn't that great, but the speed reveals the cars potential.

EXACTLY the trap says it all as it is far and away a better indication of a cars horsepower than a chasis dyno.If someone wants a dyno number thats fine also .A while back i was talking to Grahm at LPE to get his perspective on the new head castings which provide a ton more air ect (If you go on LPE website not once does it provide a RWHP NUMBER FOR THEIR Viper builds instead for the stroker it says 725 hp 750 lb feet torque at the crank. Perf numbers of 10.2 at 135 mph achieved ) Lpe uses a stock head casting on a hyd cam to run the above kind of numbers.There are no exotic dry sumped oiling,solid cams GTSR BLOCKS ECT.Grahm like the guy who built my engine (Nick at Modern )felt that stuff is great for an intended road race application, however for a typical street strip application ( WHAT MOST VIPER CUSTOMERS WANT )THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO STATISTITAL EVIDENCE whatso ever that all that EXTREMELY COSLY EXOTIC STUFF(FLOWS X AMOUNT OF AIR THREW THE HEADS ECT) will make the VIPER any faster.

 

[Paul Hawker]

I have seen some really balanced high HP cars coming out of A&C's shop. They work closely with some major experience engine builders in Temecula.

These cars make huge Dyno #'s and still are pretty streetable.

Lots of thought go into these projects, and they have a tremendous reputation within the SoCal club.

I believe the most solid foundation for a high HP Viper is a complete understanding between the owner and the builder/tuner. Only when this communication level is highest may the finished product be most satisfactory to the owner.

 

[ViperTony]

Only when this communication level is highest may the finished product be most satisfactory to the owner.

Amen to that! Great statement Paul.

 

[1fast400]

Put an auto in it, watch the MPH go way down and you'll still smoke the crap out of most vipers . I don't trap impressive speeds.

Proof: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD2Uzq45R2k[/media]

Yet, nobody can come close to running with me on a Invo.

 

[dipapa]

Since your already in talks with Greg Good Im sure he's mentioned porting a pair of strikers. Last time I spoke with him, he'd ported a pair of strikers that flowed in the 390s. thats impressive.

It be real sweet but im not gonna get too hung up on the 700 number. That numbers a luxury... we will try to set the power bar high while managing the costs.

Speaking to Greg a bit on the heads he said the flow will be 350cfm with the aggresive porting. He will be using the 2.080 Intake valve and utilizing 0.650 lift. i dont know much more than that right now.

 

[1BADGTS]

Put an auto in it, watch the MPH go way down and you'll still smoke the crap out of most vipers . I don't trap impressive speeds.

Proof: [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD2Uzq45R2k[/media]

Yet, nobody can come close to running with me on a Invo.

lol YEAH but what does a eighth mile or quarter mile time and trap speed mean IF YOU DONT HAVE THE DYNO NUMBERS AND OF COURSE HEAD FLOW NUMBERS to back such a thing up.