Monday we find out who is faster at Laguna Seca, ZR1 or Gen V
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Kratos
Enthusiast
Just got through reading all the Corvette forums. They are in shock, because they actually thought they would lose. They are laughing this one to the bank....
458 and GT3 owners were never the fastest. They don't have to be. Despite public denial by owners, performance is low on the list for reasons to buy these cars. People buy them for the craftsmanship and heritage. The new Viper is an animal torn between 2 masters. SRT spent money trying to make it more refined and less on performance oriented goals. What we get is a car that is half ass in two directions instead of being gung ** in one direction. The Viper is not a Ferrari. It shouldn't have tried to be one. It doesn't have the craftsmanship or quality of the cars it targeted. In it's effort to chase white buffalo it neglected it's core strengths.
All kidding aside, the Gen V is a good car. It just doesn't do much for me. Based on the ridiculous price of the GTS, my guess is a widebody ACR that did what many of us expected the standard Viper should have would cost over $200k. Like I said, the new Viper is confused.
I think it goes without saying that we are all a little disappointed in the result and that it was so large at 2 seconds. No excuses the ZR1 pulled it off and I say congrats. In reading the article a couple of things stuck out to me as indicators of where the Viper fell short. 1st is the brakes; Chevrolet showed up ready for battle with their carbon ceramic 15's to the Vipers steel 14's that apparently faded. This is partly unacceptable in my book because braking issues have plagued this car from it's first testing back in the day. For those that have been on a track at speed you will agree that a car with fading brakes is not confidence inspiring and much harder to push to the edge. 2nd is the tires. We all agree that the MPSC are a clear advantage over the Pirelli's. I would be interested in seeing the tires on both cars at the end of the day. That can be telling as well. SRT is going to take this one on the chin, the lack of response from them tells me that the result was not unexpected but there for sure will be a response and I believe it will be on the track. Congrats to Chevrolet and the ZR1.
bluestreak
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No, I got myself mixed up on that one. Dont know why Randy was inexplicably slow in the ACR. He should be faster than Winkler. The only thing I can think of is that Winkler with the team of engineers optimising the settings proved beneficial. Setup means a lot. Im a fan of Randy's but he has nit provided fast times in Vipers like he has other cars.
rw99
Enthusiast
Ahhh, not what I'd hoped to read this morning. But a few first thoughts:
1. Fluff: the author's fairly brutal on both interiors, so I don't see this as some sort of MT biased smear article.
2. Silver Lining: SRT is now required to build an ACR.
3. Semi-silver Lining: posting a time in a brand-new GTS that betters the 458, LFA, R8 GT, GT3 RS, and GT-R. Apply this salve to your 'vette burn.
4. Upward mods: can you pulley a ZR1 to make more power? Absolutely. And then you'll see even fewer laps before it heat sinks itself into reduced performance. Stage this same head-to-head comparo in ambient temps of 85+ F and watch the Chevy slow significantly.
The author talks about a virtual dead heat on the performance numbers, but misses an important opportunity to talk about how differently the two cars arrive at those stats. The low-rev NA V10 remains as the single truly unique element of the Viper, and should be recognized/celebrated for what it achieves.
At the end of the day, we're still left with one incontrovertible truth: the ZR1 will always be a Corvette, to which I say: Meh.
1. Fluff: the author's fairly brutal on both interiors, so I don't see this as some sort of MT biased smear article.
2. Silver Lining: SRT is now required to build an ACR.
3. Semi-silver Lining: posting a time in a brand-new GTS that betters the 458, LFA, R8 GT, GT3 RS, and GT-R. Apply this salve to your 'vette burn.
4. Upward mods: can you pulley a ZR1 to make more power? Absolutely. And then you'll see even fewer laps before it heat sinks itself into reduced performance. Stage this same head-to-head comparo in ambient temps of 85+ F and watch the Chevy slow significantly.
The author talks about a virtual dead heat on the performance numbers, but misses an important opportunity to talk about how differently the two cars arrive at those stats. The low-rev NA V10 remains as the single truly unique element of the Viper, and should be recognized/celebrated for what it achieves.
At the end of the day, we're still left with one incontrovertible truth: the ZR1 will always be a Corvette, to which I say: Meh.
Frankly, gotta stand up for my man Winkler , since so little really know about this guy. Given alot of time away from Chrysler, Chris could quite likely lock horns with Randy. Though not a professional , Chris is a National Champion SCCA pilot and is a quiet guy who like Eric Heuschele ( another SCCA National Champ who drove the Gen V over 200 on a very questionable track ) , is very , very well respected by his fellow Engineers at SRT. Salty driver, and likely every bit as fast if not faster in a Viper than Mr. Pobst. One has to wonder a bit if the fact that the new Snake was geared toward ride and safety in varying weather conditions if the new Corsa is even a relatively similar tire to the new PSC. Those in the know are quite aware the new PSC is faster than the old tire and has about 1/2 the tread life. As one selling the new car, the Vipers choice to build an aggressive tire, but to consider some safety features as a better ability to shed water, one has to wonder if that call also slowed down the Snake a bit. Overall a good compromise from all the concerns many had with the ACR and it's weather constrained driveability. Realize many never drive them in the rain, but in many States there is no choice.
rw99
Enthusiast
Watch Winkler's ACR lap and you'll see why: he is driving at frickin' 10/10ths with his hair on fire. I think Pobst is (understandably) less willing to stuff someone else's car into a tire wall or take it for a cruise in the kitty litter.
It's all about confidence, as Pobst himself mentions with regard to the GT-Rs 'Ring times. And this is an important point for those of us with only modest talent: choose your track car carefully.
Ray W
Enthusiast
I was willing to give up a little off the line performance for a newer car. I am not happy about the fact it is slower than the ZR1 on the road course. I have already had a ZR1 and I liked my GEN IV better. SRT was told we needed 700hp they gave us leather. I don't buy the fact that the driver was afraid to push the limits he is after all a proffessional. I am cancelling my order as well. $115,000.00 for a car that is middle of the road is not going to cut it for me. If SRT steps up the performance I will be back.
Don't cancel your order yet. Here is my prediction. Within 30 days, SRT will bring a car to Laguna and easily beat the record. Probst is a clown and MT has no journalistic integrity or they would have insisted that Probst familiarize himself with the Viper first to raise his level of confidence since he had not driven the Viper before and he had driven the Vette before.
Kudos to the ZR1. I'm not surprised at all but not because the Viper is inferior by any means. As much as the ZR1 beat the Viper around the track by 2 seconds, the writers/drivers gave much deserved respect to the Viper stating very little differentiates the two cars. That's a huge about face for Motor Fraud. The article sums up why I believe the ZR1 would win:
"I tried a similar speed in the Viper and totally chickened out. I just didn’t have the confidence in the SRT, for two reasons. The first is that in the Corvette, you take your set for a turn and the car goes where you’ve indicated. You’re not futzing around with the steering wheel. Conversely, in the Viper, I found myself constantly jerking and sawing at the wheel through every corner of the track. Mortara commented that the Viper was a bit like the Lamborghini Aventador -- extremely capable, but it fills you with the sense that the front and rear ends aren’t working in unison. "
The allure of the Viper has been and always will be the brutish, near-death experience of a monster V10. It takes balls, mega balls, to push the Viper up to its' limits let alone beyond them. This is what the Viper experience is all about and it's not for everyone. I am grateful for this.
I remember when I was making the choice between a Vette and Viper in 2005. Sure, in the rags the Vette's numbers were slightly better but as the writer says:
“There is something alluring about the Viper that I can’t quite place. Not to say that I like it -- it’s an awful street car -- but I started to get this sense of reward. Like, I could finally get to a point where control of a Viper was within reach. That’s something I never thought was possible.”
I chose the Viper and never looked back. No need to...I want to drive, not be driven.
There are some lingering concerns though...as much as true drivers don't live or die based on magazine comparisons, from a marketing perspective I would be worried at SRT. A much cheaper, outgoing ZR1 beat a more expensive, slightly more HP Viper. And it beat the ACR's record on the track too. The numbers were close, too close. There's no significant advantage between one or the other in this specific comparison and that speaks volumes. That's a proven, outgoing model beat a newcomer. We can talk about tires, the better driver, understeer/oversteer, shoulda, woulda, coulda but the facts are out in this one comparison. I don't believe the driver had the balls to push the Viper as it is meant to be pushed.
I still prefer the Gen V or any other Gen Viper over the ZR-1. So, to me this comparison really means little. For those worried about numbers, a couple of modifications will solve that if you're worried about who's is bigger.
"I tried a similar speed in the Viper and totally chickened out. I just didn’t have the confidence in the SRT, for two reasons. The first is that in the Corvette, you take your set for a turn and the car goes where you’ve indicated. You’re not futzing around with the steering wheel. Conversely, in the Viper, I found myself constantly jerking and sawing at the wheel through every corner of the track. Mortara commented that the Viper was a bit like the Lamborghini Aventador -- extremely capable, but it fills you with the sense that the front and rear ends aren’t working in unison. "
The allure of the Viper has been and always will be the brutish, near-death experience of a monster V10. It takes balls, mega balls, to push the Viper up to its' limits let alone beyond them. This is what the Viper experience is all about and it's not for everyone. I am grateful for this.
I remember when I was making the choice between a Vette and Viper in 2005. Sure, in the rags the Vette's numbers were slightly better but as the writer says:
“There is something alluring about the Viper that I can’t quite place. Not to say that I like it -- it’s an awful street car -- but I started to get this sense of reward. Like, I could finally get to a point where control of a Viper was within reach. That’s something I never thought was possible.”
I chose the Viper and never looked back. No need to...I want to drive, not be driven.
There are some lingering concerns though...as much as true drivers don't live or die based on magazine comparisons, from a marketing perspective I would be worried at SRT. A much cheaper, outgoing ZR1 beat a more expensive, slightly more HP Viper. And it beat the ACR's record on the track too. The numbers were close, too close. There's no significant advantage between one or the other in this specific comparison and that speaks volumes. That's a proven, outgoing model beat a newcomer. We can talk about tires, the better driver, understeer/oversteer, shoulda, woulda, coulda but the facts are out in this one comparison. I don't believe the driver had the balls to push the Viper as it is meant to be pushed.
I still prefer the Gen V or any other Gen Viper over the ZR-1. So, to me this comparison really means little. For those worried about numbers, a couple of modifications will solve that if you're worried about who's is bigger.
eucharistos
Enthusiast
TrackAire
Enthusiast
Canceling orders???.....I can't believe people even placed orders sight unseen for a vehicle thats perfomance numbers have not even been release yet. At this price point, I want proof of what a vehicle is capable of before I buy the car. The car is just as fast in a straight line as the ZR1 (that is really fast), but at this level, it comes down to feel and confidence on the track and on the road. Lap times do matter to a lot of us. I bought a Gen 4 because it had set the Ring record and to me, that shows a lot of what the vehicle has in it engineering-wise and I was willing to live with the other downfalls that many complain about.
For those with a Gen 4 ACR....keep it. Within a few short years, the automotive world will realize just how crazy good and fast this car really is. Regardless of the so-called crappy interior, crude design, blah, blah, blah or whatever other downfalls a Gen 4 has, it is hard to beat on the track. With a Gen 4 ACR, you can show up to any track in the world and be in the top 1-2% against other street legal supercars, all in a stock vehicle.
At 138 mph coming into turn 1, I would think the aero package that was seen at SEMA would have made the car more stable. Why would SRT send a car without optioning it to the equivalent of its competitor?? The brakes are going to be a problem....other reviews mentioned it and brakes can be worth a lot of time on a track like Laguna Seca. Why are we even discussing brakes, it should be a no brainer how to make brakes work and be fade free at this level???
I am suprised that there was a 2 seconds between the cars....that is a lot. About 10 car lengths per lap, 50 car lengths after 5 laps. The Corvette and Viper would not even be in the same class if competing in the SCCA, etc.
Exactly how good are the Corsa's???....we know the Cups are pretty damn good and again, we have no consumer information on these compared to what we had (the Cups) or the other R compound tires out there. Why wouldn't SRT put out some comparison data to show they are just as good or better than the Cups? Again we're asked to take this on blind faith.
Here is my favorite quote from the article..."As Randy Pobst pointed out, The Viper’s got more understeer and more oversteer than the Corvette.” Oh boy, great...that is not good for a car that's had a couple of years to get sorted out. This car should be much more stable than past Viper generations. Does Probst hate Vipers?...maybe, but as a race car driver he would never not run at the top of his ability because it would be very embarrassing for a Viper engineer to show up next week and run faster than he did in the same car. He still has a reputation to uphold and still drives for a living.
Don't worry Viper Nation....just check SRT's Facebook and all your questions and concerns will be answered.
Not very Cheerful,
George
For those with a Gen 4 ACR....keep it. Within a few short years, the automotive world will realize just how crazy good and fast this car really is. Regardless of the so-called crappy interior, crude design, blah, blah, blah or whatever other downfalls a Gen 4 has, it is hard to beat on the track. With a Gen 4 ACR, you can show up to any track in the world and be in the top 1-2% against other street legal supercars, all in a stock vehicle.
At 138 mph coming into turn 1, I would think the aero package that was seen at SEMA would have made the car more stable. Why would SRT send a car without optioning it to the equivalent of its competitor?? The brakes are going to be a problem....other reviews mentioned it and brakes can be worth a lot of time on a track like Laguna Seca. Why are we even discussing brakes, it should be a no brainer how to make brakes work and be fade free at this level???
I am suprised that there was a 2 seconds between the cars....that is a lot. About 10 car lengths per lap, 50 car lengths after 5 laps. The Corvette and Viper would not even be in the same class if competing in the SCCA, etc.
Exactly how good are the Corsa's???....we know the Cups are pretty damn good and again, we have no consumer information on these compared to what we had (the Cups) or the other R compound tires out there. Why wouldn't SRT put out some comparison data to show they are just as good or better than the Cups? Again we're asked to take this on blind faith.
Here is my favorite quote from the article..."As Randy Pobst pointed out, The Viper’s got more understeer and more oversteer than the Corvette.” Oh boy, great...that is not good for a car that's had a couple of years to get sorted out. This car should be much more stable than past Viper generations. Does Probst hate Vipers?...maybe, but as a race car driver he would never not run at the top of his ability because it would be very embarrassing for a Viper engineer to show up next week and run faster than he did in the same car. He still has a reputation to uphold and still drives for a living.
Don't worry Viper Nation....just check SRT's Facebook and all your questions and concerns will be answered.
Not very Cheerful,
George
Early93Viper
Enthusiast
Next step SRT.........get a car to Laguna and take back that record.
Lespauldude
Viper Owner
Kratos
Enthusiast
Seems to be some bickering going back and forth. Looks like Ralph and SRT got shook up a little bit.
Ray W
Enthusiast
Bob, What factory in their right mind brings out a new car,doesn't divulge any performance numbers and gives a test car to a known past Viper hating publication? They said they listened to what we wanted and they built a car based on something else. They hope to sell cars based on past history hoping the new owners never find out that they spent way too much.
I agree 100%! It's good to know that the viper still scares even the best drivers out there
VENOM V
Enthusiast
Two excellent points you hit on. I didn't buy my Viper SOLELY based on whether it would be the absolute top dog at the track. I'll leave that mission for the ACR. I bought it because it does do it for me. If it just doesn't do much for you, find the car that does and get it.
I would hope that most people that buy cars in this performance category do so also because of the car's heritage, styling, interior, and to enjoy on weekend getaways. The Viper I believe will fit this category for me. I was about ready to buy a used Z06 as a track toy when the Gen V came along, because I have tremendous respect for the Vette's performance. But it doesn't stir the passion that the Viper and its heritage has always for me, neither does any Porsche nor most exotics. I don't think the Viper is confused, it hits a bullseye for what I'm looking for.
eucharistos
Enthusiast
emericr
Enthusiast
Second time I agree. One of the reason why I want a Viper is the fact that the car was a top dog. A brand new generation car being beat by a 4 year vehicle by a good margin on the same day by the same driver is disappointing to say the least.
I am also not happy about the comments about the interior. I wanted a daily driver like an R8 or 458 and to hear the bad remarks does not help.
As previously stated, this reiterates the fact that I will not order a Gen V as it currently stands and will wait for an ACR Version. SRT has their work cut out. Their history show they can do it, so please do it again.
I am also not happy about the comments about the interior. I wanted a daily driver like an R8 or 458 and to hear the bad remarks does not help.
As previously stated, this reiterates the fact that I will not order a Gen V as it currently stands and will wait for an ACR Version. SRT has their work cut out. Their history show they can do it, so please do it again.
Since none of the GenVs have been delivered yet, SRT now has the chance to add a little power, put on better brakes and fine tune the handling. It's probably not going to happen, but they should. Numbers were too close to the ZR1 to start with. Can't expect to leave it in the dust if you don't better it in all categories by at least 5-10%.
PS: I still love my Viper. RW99 is correct. At the end of the day, the ZR1 is still a Corvette. The Viper is a VIPER!
PS: I still love my Viper. RW99 is correct. At the end of the day, the ZR1 is still a Corvette. The Viper is a VIPER!
bushido
Viper Owner
From Randy Pobst..
eucharistos
Enthusiast
some from there:
klamathpro
Viper Owner
SRT never said the GEN5 was faster than the ACR. In fact I was told by the lead Engineer, Graham, that they didn't see the need to test it at the Ring until the ACR comes out.
What needs to be done is send a real driver that knows the GEN5 and it's limits and go beat that ZR1 time at Laguna with a final production car. SRT should have never let MT take a pre-prod car out there, let alone have that washed up driver test it.
Vooodoo ACR
Enthusiast
I wouldn't be surprised to SRT takes the Viper to Laguna Seca in the VERY near future.
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
I am think I would stick with the Gen 4 ACR too. Next car for me with be a proven 2010 ACR
Looks like the gauntlet has been thrown down by MT. Now posted by M/T's Lieberman to Ralph on that twitter thread: "We will take both cars back to Laguna Seca any time SRT likes. The 'Vette's CC brakes paid off."
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