Why does DC choose not to install traction

[wormdoggy]

Its a great car and I would not have it any other way. However, given that so many vehicles today , including the new arrived Z06, have traction control, I am suprised that DC has chosen to continue production of these cars without it.

There are times and I mean brief moments that I would have liked to have it , just for that extra safety measure..............

Is it a question of money? Reduction in HP ? Why ?

Cheers
Patrick

 

[Viperfreak2]

The development time is probably the reason ($$$). Maybe the computing power of the body module.... AND the Viper mission statement. "The Viper has traction control, your two feet, learn to use them"

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

If you need training wheels the Viper is not for you.

The concept of Viper is to be a driver's car, not a driver's aids-assisted car. Every other sports car on the market has those things, choose one of them.

 

[Nader]

I agree tractional control while more practical and safe, would take some of the fun out of the car.

 

[DocAdam]

Every time I got in my Z, the first thing I did was turn off the traction control. It was a PITA and I do not miss it one bit.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

I would love to have Active Stability Control with various settings on my Viper and there is no such system as of yet. Just the basic traction control is nothing but letting your foot of the gas, cutting the ignition same thing. Big deal. You can control the car much better than the simple traction control with some experience. I can't understand why people pay all that $$$ to install Racelogic on their Vipers and spend the rest of their lives working the bugs out of the system. All it does is cut ignition = Let your foot of the gas. Wow, rocket science....

But Active Stability Control is a must for all high HP and TQ cars. I can drive my Viper to its limits but I just can't brake each tire independently . Wish I could. I am yet to see somebody who can floor it but at the same time brake each tire independently around a corner. Look at all the recent High HP & TQ cars. We always include Viper with the high $$$ exotics. Well, Ferrari Enzo, F430, etc all Ferraris, all Porsches, etc have Active Stability Control where you can adjust the interference of the system. And for you "My 2 feet do everything" guys, you can turn it off at the turn of a switch. And you guys should throw ABS away if you are that hadcore...

I think Viper is the only exotic sports car manufactured in 2006 without any means of traction or stability control. Even the Formula 1 cars have traction control...

 

[Warfang]

I would love to have Active Stability Control with various settings on my Viper and there is no such system as of yet. Just the basic traction control is nothing but letting your foot of the gas, cutting the ignition same thing. Big deal. You can control the car much better than the simple traction control with some experience. I can't understand why people pay all that $$$ to install Racelogic on their Vipers and spend the rest of their lives working the bugs out of the system. All it does is cut ignition = Let your foot of the gas. Wow, rocket science....

But Active Stability Control is a must for all high HP and TQ cars. I can drive my Viper to its limits but I just can't brake each tire independently . Wish I could. I am yet to see somebody who can floor it but at the same time brake each tire independently around a corner. Look at all the recent High HP & TQ cars. We always include Viper with the high $$$ exotics. Well, Ferrari Enzo, F430, etc all Ferraris, all Porsches, etc have Active Stability Control where you can adjust the interference of the system. And for you "My 2 feet do everything" guys, you can turn it off at the turn of a switch. And you guys should throw ABS away if you are that hadcore...

I think Viper is the only exotic sports car manufactured in 2006 without any means of traction or stability control. Even the Formula 1 cars have traction control...

I think the only reason the Viper has ABS is because it's mandated by law now. I could be wrong.

If I wanted a Porsche or a Z06, I'd buy one of those. The Viper is all about "Oh ****" driving. It's part of what makes it a bada$$ car. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. It's a back-to-basics supercar, retro in it's design in appearance and handling. Next thing you know, you'll want HUD and those fancy headlights that turn when you do.

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

I would also think it would effect the torque that Vipers owners expect. The one thing that’s always written about the Viper is the torque that know other car has. I wonder if you could put traction control on that and not effect the out come.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

I think the only reason the Viper has ABS is because it's mandated by law now. I could be wrong.

If I wanted a Porsche or a Z06, I'd buy one of those. The Viper is all about "Oh ****" driving. It's part of what makes it a bada$$ car. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. It's a back-to-basics supercar, retro in it's design in appearance and handling. Next thing you know, you'll want HUD and those fancy headlights that turn when you do.

Your "Oh ****" driving Viper has electric adjustable pedals for God's sake.

There are million things that could be put on a Viper rather than useless electric adjustable pedals.

 

[Warfang]

I think the only reason the Viper has ABS is because it's mandated by law now. I could be wrong.

If I wanted a Porsche or a Z06, I'd buy one of those. The Viper is all about "Oh ****" driving. It's part of what makes it a bada$$ car. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. It's a back-to-basics supercar, retro in it's design in appearance and handling. Next thing you know, you'll want HUD and those fancy headlights that turn when you do.

Your "Oh ****" driving Viper has electric adjustable pedals for God's sake.

There are million things that could be put on a Viper rather than useless electric adjustable pedals.

Sorry to dissappoint you, but I have a gts.

Yes, a million things... and who choses which one out of those millions? You? Call me a pansy, but my biggest gripe with the gen1/2's was the lack of cupholders, but I didn't expect anyone to add one in on my behalf. However, your one specific point about adjustable pedals is well taken. The difference is one adds a little creature comfort while traction control changes the idea behind the car. Simple really. If you MUST have it, get racelogic... just like if you absolutely must have 1000HP, get a TT.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Your "Oh ****" driving Viper has electric adjustable pedals for God's sake.

So what's your point? Viper purist were perfectly happy with the manual adjustment, and most with non-ABS.

But keep whining for all those neat hi-tech gadgets that take skill out of your feet and puts it in the hands of engineers, eventually it will be the car you want it to be and us purists will have to look elsewhere. It's only a matter of time.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

Your "Oh ****" driving Viper has electric adjustable pedals for God's sake.

There are million things that could be put on a Viper rather than useless electric adjustable pedals.

Sorry to dissappoint you, but I have a gts.

Yes, a million things... and who choses which one out of those millions? You? Call me a pansy, but my biggest gripe with the gen1/2's was the lack of cupholders, but I didn't expect anyone to add one in on my behalf. However, your one specific point about adjustable pedals is well taken. The difference is one adds a little creature comfort while traction control changes the idea behind the car. Simple really. If you MUST have it, get racelogic... just like if you absolutely must have 1000HP, get a TT.

I'm not dissapointed at all. Well, if you reply to a post in the GENIII forum and if your sig has no info on your car, I just assume you are a GENIII owner.

Cupholders or Electric adjustable pedals don't do any good to the performance of the Viper but a factory Active Stability Control (Not Simply Traction COntrol) will improve the Viper's performance a lot. If you read my post, you will see that I think Racelogic is a waste of $$$$. All it does is cut ignition when it senses rear wheel spin. Big deal. We need something that won't cut the power going to rear wheels but apply brake to each tire independently to hold you on the road while going fast. And I would love to have 1,000 HP.

 

[Janni]

Re: ABS
ABS was added to the car because it decreased lap times. Engineers put ABS on a Viper for Herb Helbig to test - and some have been under the impression that a good threshold braker would beat ABS - Herb then put down immediately some faster lap times. THAT is why ABS was installed. It was also the one aspect of the car that was not class leading.

Re: Power pedals
The power adjuster was lighter in weight than the prior manual adjuster. That is why it's on the SRT AND the Comp Coupe.

Traction Control is relatively easy - once you get past the 4th channel for independent control to each wheel, it's really a form of ABS. The Viper's creed was to be a pure drivers car - and more electronic nannies are very contrary to that. There are plenty of other cars to buy if that is what you desire. Others of us prefer to be rewarded by learning to handle the car without the babysitter - and we sure as heck don't want some piece of electronics telling us how far we can hang the back end out while going around a corner.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

My point is that DC could have put an adjustable Active Stability Control instead of electric adjustable pedals. If you want to track and drive your car on the street at the same time like I do, it is the best of both worlds. You can turn it off and enjoy your car whenever you want to.

My point is that DC sells the SRT-10's as street cars and it will be nice to have high tech gadgets like active stability control, etc from the factory. It is nice to have option of turning on or off high tech gadgets. That doesn't hurt the purity of Vipers. And if you want a full track car, you can take them all out. An SRT-10 or GTS can be totally stripped and turned into a track car or you can get a Comp Coupe.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

Re: ABS
ABS was added to the car because it decreased lap times. Engineers put ABS on a Viper for Herb Helbig to test - and some have been under the impression that a good threshold braker would beat ABS - Herb then put down immediately some faster lap times. THAT is why ABS was installed. It was also the one aspect of the car that was not class leading.

Re: Power pedals
The power adjuster was lighter in weight than the prior manual adjuster. That is why it's on the SRT AND the Comp Coupe.

Traction Control is relatively easy - once you get past the 4th channel for independent control to each wheel, it's really a form of ABS. The Viper's creed was to be a pure drivers car - and more electronic nannies are very contrary to that. There are plenty of other cars to buy if that is what you desire. Others of us prefer to be rewarded by learning to handle the car without the babysitter - and we sure as heck don't want some piece of electronics telling us how far we can hang the back end out while going around a corner.

Well if you "don't want some piece of electronics telling us how far we can hang the back end out while going around a corner", you simply turn it off.
And if I want each tire to be braked independently by a computer that processes million readings from million sensors in miliseconds going around a corner, I turn it on.

Turn off...
Turn on...
That's the beauty...

 

[ARMORGOD]

Every time I got in my Z, the first thing I did was turn off the traction control.

Same here. I hated that it automatically went into TC everytime you started it up, and I had to manually take it out by holding the button down for a few seconds.

 

[Viperfreak2]

It could, and has, made the difference between life and death to the lower-skilled driver (i.e. student?) on public roads. After they remove the body, and find the 'trac' switch in the OFF position, it was all lack of skill that got them/you 6 feet under.

Tracks have run off areas, helmets, 5 point harnesses required, walls, kitty litter etc etc etc. It's the ONLY place to push the limits in a car with this much power. IMHO

I can push my car with stability control faster around turns than the Viper. It only has 215 hp. The bravery factor goes way up with the computer on!

 

[INSOMNIAC]

Every time I got in my Z, the first thing I did was turn off the traction control.

Same here. I hated that it automatically went into TC everytime you started it up, and I had to manually take it out by holding the button down for a few seconds.

When I got in my Z06 and said "Traction Off", my Z06 turned it off automatically.
What's wrong with "manually" pressing a button right next to you on the armrest?
Actually when you press the "Active Stability Control" button on the 2002-Up Z06's it will turn all traction control off.
When you press and hold this button for couple seconds, it will get into Competition Mode, where it doesn't cut ignition or reduce power going to the rear tires but control stability by applying different brake pressures to each tire. Slick.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Turn off...
Turn on...
That's the beauty...

You just don't understand the whole Viper ardor do you?

 

[Big Medicine]

DITTO

Every time I got in my Z, the first thing I did was turn off the traction control.

Same here. I hated that it automatically went into TC everytime you started it up, and I had to manually take it out by holding the button down for a few seconds.

 

[wormdoggy]

warfang vs. insomniac on the issues of traction control

Didn't realize this was going to be such a delicate subject.

As I mentioned above and as my signature states very clearly I would have the car no other way............I was curious, although, as to why Viper is probably the only sports car out there without traction control. Perhaps it is do to the low production numbers of this car.........I could pretty much guarantee you that if DC were to increase production they would certainly contemplate traction control. Otherwise I am also very certain there would be a lot of drastic fata accidents around.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

Turn off...
Turn on...
That's the beauty...

You just don't understand the whole Viper ardor do you?

No Chuck. I totally understand the Viper ardor and I'm proud to own a 2005 SRT-10.

I just have a different opinion than yours on this subject. Is it ok? Can I have a Viper and have different opinion than yours? Am I allowed to say what I think? Or should I just turn in my Viper back to the dealer cause I don't think like Chuck...

Is it so hard to tolerate different thoughts? Do all the Viper owners have to think like Chuck?

Because you are a "Viper Purist", did you throw away ABS and power steering? Do you have AC or stereo in your Viper? Do you have Lexan windows and a safety net?

 

[Warfang]

Didn't realize this was going to be such a delicate subject.

As I mentioned above and as my signature states very clearly I would have the car no other way............I was curious, although, as to why Viper is probably the only sports car out there without traction control.

Now you know why. Vipers aren't for whiny ninnies.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

Didn't realize this was going to be such a delicate subject.

As I mentioned above and as my signature states very clearly I would have the car no other way............I was curious, although, as to why Viper is probably the only sports car out there without traction control.

Now you know why. Vipers aren't for whiny ninnies.

Who are Vipers for? When was the last time you tracked your Viper? What do you run in the 1/4 mile?...... Yeah, I thought so...

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Jeezus Art, could you be a little more sensitive? We're having a discussion here and you get all bent?

And no, I don't think you understand the Viper mindset. But as I already stated you will get your wish in time. And then you will have all the bells and whistles and hi-tech-save-your-*** gadgets...just like every other luxury sports car. Maybe a smaller motor with a turbo too! That would be cool.

In the end you will win and us purists will lose. But I'm going down swinging.


- note smiley face.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

Didn't realize this was going to be such a delicate subject.

As I mentioned above and as my signature states very clearly I would have the car no other way............I was curious, although, as to why Viper is probably the only sports car out there without traction control. Perhaps it is do to the low production numbers of this car.........I could pretty much guarantee you that if DC were to increase production they would certainly contemplate traction control. Otherwise I am also very certain there would be a lot of drastic fata accidents around.

It is NOT a delicate subject. It is a very valid request. All high HP & TQ exotic cars have ABS and Traction control these days and DC will put traction control in Viper sooner or later like they did with the ABS.

It is just that there are narrowminded people in the Viper community who call anybody having different ideas than themselves sissies or whiners.

These Vipernecks normally drive GENI or GENII and hate everything about GENIII's.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

Jeezus Art, could you be a little more sensitive? We're having a discussion here and you get all bent?

And no, I don't think you understand the Viper mindset. But as I already stated you will get your wish in time. And then you will have all the bells and whistles and hi-tech-save-your-*** gadgets...just like every other luxury sports car. Maybe a smaller motor with a turbo too! That would be cool.

In the end you will win and us purists will lose. But I'm going down swinging.


- note smiley face.

Chuck, DC needs to build a black Comp Coupe for you. Oh wait. There's already one that you can buy right now. Stop typing in this thread and go buy Jerry's cc.

If Viper wants to compete against European and American exotics, the leauge requires high-tech gadgets and *** savers. It helps when they are saving an expensive ***. And as you said, it is going to happen sometime.

 

[Janni]

(unbolded to reduce the annoyance factor)

It is NOT a delicate subject. It is a very valid request. All high HP & TQ exotic cars have ABS and Traction control these days and DC will put traction control in Viper sooner or later like they did with the ABS.

It is just that there are narrowminded people in the Viper community who call anybody having different ideas than themselves sissies or whiners.

These Vipernecks normally drive GENI or GENII and hate everything about GENIII's.

I must be one of these "Vipernecks" that you so eloquently phrased - but I happen to have a Competition Coupe sitting downstairs that sees more track time that I suspect your 2005 does - as did our 1996s and 1998 Gen II's.... and we're pretty happy to NOT have the electronic TC. So - we don't hate all things Gen III - we actually love all things Viper - and THAT means no TC for a purer driving experience.

We LIKE the fact that the car is not for everyone. We LIKE the fact that it can bite you - it kinda weeds out the folks that aren't particularly passionate and let's them move on to their next car quickly.

The car is supposed to be big motored, low tech, tons of torque and world class performing - it does all that very well - without traction control. And yes- everyone else has it - remember when being different was *good*?

If the Viper stays true to the above statement - people like Chuck will be on their 6th, 7th or 8th Viper - and the others will have moved on to something else - hell - even with TC - many of the others will move on - because the car will NEVER be just like those other exotics and they'll find something else the car is "lacking" - instead of appreciating it for it's raw simplicity and staying power to buck the pressure for electronic nannies.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Stop typing in this thread and go buy Jerry's cc.

No way buddy. Like I said, I'm not going down without a fight!

NO TC FOR YOU!!! NEXT!!!

- think Seinfeld, the Soup ****.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Like it or not, the next generation of Viper will have a switchable traction control. If nothing else for the liability factor. Assuming you have a 600+ HP vehicle, it will be extraordinarily easy to break loose. And I don't see them building Vipers with Kumhos as factory rubber.

The thing that sells Vipers is horsepower and exotic looks. The latest version (SRT-10) gained in one area and dropped a little in another (and before I get any crap for that comment, note that I didn't say it looked any worse - just less "exotic"). You have a handful of track rats that want the Viper to remain "pure" with no electronic assistance whatsoever. They eschew ABS or anything else that removes the driver even a little bit.

And therein lies the rub: The Viper is built for the public roads and not sold as a track car (witness the convertible). The folks that want to race them have, for the most part, stuck with their Gen II's (or even gone back to one) or gotten a Comp Coupe. I have yet to hear of anybody ordering the new Coupe for racing purposes. The vast majority (95%+) that buy the Viper today buy it for street use only. And very few have the skills exemplified by Chuck, Janni, and some of the others here. Result? More accidents, lawsuits, and deaths. Enough so to warrant switchable traction control as a realistic option.

Now, there is a solution for those that don't want these things. Let's call it something like, oh, an American Club Racer edition - or "ACR" for short. You may remember that Dodge built us some of those in the past and sold a fairly limited number of them. They were the most "pure" of Vipers ever built: No air conditioning, no radios, no driving lights. Five point harnesses, better suspension, lighter wheels, and more horsepower. Ironically very few were ordered that way, with the vast majority electing to add back in the stereo and air conditioning. Indeed, in four years time they only built 38 ACR's without the "comfort group" - out of the total of 819 built.

As for me, I am no hero and certainly can't claim the driving skills of some of you. While I have probably made 250+ passes in various Vipers down the 1/4 mile, done a few road course events, and ahem, maybe raced somebody outside those venues never to exceed the speed limit - I know that unless the roads are perfect, I will invariably break loose when I least want to do so. When a 356 HP Porsche beats me with AWD and TC on dirty, um, tracks, then I won't be shy about hitting the "on" button in some situations. Especially if I am pushing 600 or more horsepower.

So the question is one of safety and building one "for the masses", even if those masses are less than 3000 per year. And build an ACR version with no electronic aids for those that want them. Just make sure that A/C is an option.